By Phil Hecken
This past week, a number of pictures from the outstanding Google-Life magazine collaboration, featuring the treasure trove of Life magazine pictures, have been again popping up on the blog. The collection, which was originally released in November of 2008, features literally millions of gorgeous pictures from Life‘s archives. You can begin your search for these photos here. I’ll see you in a few hours.
The collection is still relatively new (in fact, as many of you know, UW prexy Paul Lukas already wrote two pieces featuring photos from the Life collection when it was first released). But they keep adding wonderful photos to the archive, and it continues to grow. They estimate they’ll have over 10 million images available when all is said and done. Not all of them are sports-related, of course, but many are.
I won’t spend this article reposting a bunch of pics (although I will post some), since you don’t need me to do that — you can get lost in your own little search for hours (as I know I have and I’m sure I am not alone in that). But just in case there was anyone living under a rock, or who didn’t happen to read Uni Watch when Paul first explored the Life archives, I thought we could take just a few moments to discuss the Google-Life collaboration.
The only problem, if you could even call it that, with the search function, is it doesn’t seem to have a great interface. It takes some getting used to, and finding pics can prove tricky. And once you find your photos, they’re not exactly always clearly marked. I’m hoping they’ll get around to better identifying the photos in the future, but with 10 million of them, and I’m sure many of the originals weren’t well ID’ed, that may prove a daunting task.
Lets say I want to find some New York Mets pictures. Simple enough, right? Just go to the ‘start’ page, type in “Mets” in the “search” bar, and voila — five pages of uni goodness. I mean, how gorgeous is this? Awesome, right? And look, the photograph is clearly identified: “Baseball player Willie Stargell #8 (L), of the Pittsburgh Pirates, sliding in a game vs the New York Mets.” They also include the date, location and photographer’s name.
Unfortunately, however, that same search turns up this beautiful photograph, but the only identifier is “1969 Mets Baseball Team” (I am pretty sure that’s Gil Hodges on the left, but many, I’m sure, do not.) And if I change my search terms to “Gil Hodges”, I do find 10 photos, (one of which may have been taken the same day, only it’s in black in white), but I don’t find any in color. So, while finding pictures, especially with an easy search such as “Mets” turns up gold, I simply wish there were more to go on, especially with older teams or teams for which I am not familiar.
Likewise, a search for “Tom Seaver” turns up ONE (!) result, and it’s flipped! (this pic appeared in the comments this week and prompted today’s column). That’s another small beef I have with the archive. Here’s how that pic should have looked (and surely, it was correct if it did appear in the pages of Life). As several readers (I’m looking at you Squiddie) have pointed out, many of the pics are flipped, such as this Baltimore Colts pic (which I unflipped). Again, with 10 million photos, give or take, I can’t really complain about the lack of identification or a few being reversed, but it is more than a minor flaw.
A search for “Giants”, for example, will return not just sports photos, but other stuff as well, so it’s always advisable to refine your search terms. If you just wanted to keep going after that initial search, however (and why not — those pics are gorgeous), seven pages in you’d find this page, and if you click on the 18th (out of 20) thumb, well then you’d be rewarded with this fantastic pic of “The New York Giants, in dark jerseys, playing against the Dallas Cowboys in light jerseys. (December 1962).” Notice the player is wearing sneakers. Of course, he’s not identified (pretty sure that’s Frank Gifford), so the greatness of the site is somewhat diminished by the lack of identifiers.
A final, although not major complaint I do have is when one finds, say, a photo string to one’s liking. Say I just click on the “Baseball” link on the home page. The result will be thousands of photos in thumbnail form. If I click on the one from page 1 entitled Cuban Baseball Players, I get that particular photograph, with not much identification (ok, fair enough). To the right of the photograph are four additional thumbs (“Related Images”) plus a link to “more” photos. I wish they could have spread those photos and the additional links out in the same form as I get if I typed in “Cuban Baseball Players” in the search screen. The way they’ve set the board up, however, yields the photo with the four thumbs (which seem to rotate in a bizarre order when you click on them). If I click the “more” link, all I get are four new small thumbs. If there is anyone from the Google-Life page reading this, maybe you could talk to someone about this and set about to fixing it pronto? (I keed, I keed).
Anyway, in sum, I LOVE the Google-Life stuff. I just wish it were a little easier to identify and/or search for specific teams, persons, etc. And Life isn’t the only game in town as far as finding old sports photos goes. The Library of Congress (head down to the third item in Paul’s Follow-Up Roundup for linkies) has pics, as do Corbis (be sure to sign up — it’s free) and Shorpy and probably a bunch of others. But the Life archive is still relatively new, adding new pictures all the time, and just a wonderful place to spend a rainy Sunday afternoon (or a day in your office, if you know what I mean). If you haven’t yet bookmarked it, what are you waiting for?
From The Ricko Files we have four beautiful photographs today, in honor of the announcement that the Original Eight AFL clubs would be wearing throwbacks this season. (For the full story, click here. For a pretty damn cool link showing a bunch of 50th Anniversary stuff, click here.) Paul referenced the report (first item in Friday’s ticker), and announced the referees (to our surprise and delight) would also be “throwing back” to their original AFL uniforms. Some discussion ensued as to whether the AFL referees really wore orange and white stripes, or if the stripes were, in actuality, red and white. As we Uni Watchers are nothing if not a detail oriented group, we of course needed additional confirmation that the ref unis were, in fact, orange and white. Confirmation came in the form of this auction piece, which shows the unis are a beautiful orange and white stripe. Notice that the uniform on the left has what appear to be equal width stripes, while the two on the right have thicker orange stripes (as well as numbers). One is obviously the short-sleeved and the other is the long-sleeved version of the same jersey. They are distinctly different from the third jersey however. This will be evident in the photos below.
Ricko has delved deep into the Ricko files to provide us all with additional photographs showing the referees in their original orange and white. The first pic appears to be just a couple of Patriots (and, c’mon, how freakin’ gorgeous is that uniform? — I know the ‘losing’ sentiment that is attached to those, but seriously, that’s 9,000 times better than the stuff they won all their Super Bowls in). Anyway, if you look closely at the photograph, you will see in the upper right-hand corner a referee, clearly clad in the orange and white. You’ll also see the lower portion of his leg, which features a black and orange striped sock (but no stirrup!). It’s hard to tell, but the orange stripes appear thicker than the white ones on the official (ref?). The second photograph shows the Buffalo Bills in action (another gorgeous uniform), with a clear image of a referee in the background wearing the orange and white stripes and an orange cap. The stripes on his jersey appear to be of equal width. The third photograph is from a 1963 Chargers versus Oilers game (love those Oiler helmets) and notice the color of the Chargers jerseys — I’m not quite sure what color blue that is, but I know what it isn’t — ‘powder’ blue. Notice the referee (or is that a line judge?) in what could be described as red (but most likely orange) stripes, and they appear to be much thicker on the color side and thinner on the white side. Also, the cap is white. Finally, the fourth photograph is from 1961 (it says 1962, but it’s a pre-season guide, so the pic is from ’61), Buffalo Bills versus Dallas Texans. The official does appear to have red stripes in that one as well, but don’t appear to be equal width either. Hmmm.
I can certainly see how it might be possible to think the referees and officials wore red back then, because in a couple of these photographs they sure appear red. If anyone knows more about the stripe width (as in, who on the field wore which), it’d be great if you could post it. Also, what was the distinction between the orange and the white capped officials?
Ricko sent me a note along with the photos, a portion of which I will reproduce here:
“That Bills-Texans photo is the first color action photo I ever saw from an AFL game. Imagine that, the ’62 SI football preview. Two full seasons played and its the first color game action seen by a kid who bought every annual he could find for those two years. Saw football cards, of course (which were all posed), but no game action. Granted, I didn’t live in an AFL market, but still…
And these young guys think we’re kidding, exaggerating, bragging or telling sob stories when we talk about how tough uni-watching was back then. LOL”
Thanks, Ricko! You’re the man. These kids today, eh?
This and That: Interesting stuff from reader Charlie Lockett: “The new England soccer kit is launched this weekend and for what i believe will be the first time, each kit is individually tailored to each player, like a suit! Some really interesting preview videos you might enjoy” … Today’s NC2A regional final between the Heels and the Sooners may be more about Blake and Tyler than NC and OU … Texas Ranger Michael Young states, “I played for the Cubs. Our uniforms were green.” … They’re still doing that pink thing in hockey? … This may have already been posted, and if it was, my apologies, but the Chiefs will be wearing the Texans unis this year, and some are not happy about it (again, apologies if this exact story was already posted) … The Jags will be getting really shitty uniforms this fall, but at least they have low expectations for the upcoming season … Speaking of new uniforms, the Russians are getting some for their national soccer team … Yesterday’s post got me thinking “Go Terriers” (no, not really) … Speaking of hockey, this is REALLY cool — why didn’t they have cool stuff like this when I was a lad? … “We haven’t bowled a single game as a team and we already have equipment companies calling us, so the word is getting out” … A bit of uni news can be found in the “Briefly” section of this 49ers article … Do people still skateboard? If so, here are some skateboard logos … and finally, Brawn scores with Virgin.
Everybody enjoy your Sunday. I gotta work, my brackets are all busted (there’s more red ink there than in the stimulus package), and it’s supposed to rain. Cheers!
After the initial shock of seeing England players apparently wearing a polo shirt for games, I’ve grown to quite like the new understated kit.
It’s a victory for anti-logo creeps as it features just one Umbro double diamond, usually they have their mark on the shorts and one on each sock but only the shirt carries one this time.
In an era of kits being overdesigned, this is a simplistic masterpiece.
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Where can I find pictures of the new jags uniforms?
“Prexy” is a Variety slanguage word. It has no place in any blog or publication. Including Variety.
Man, the new england kit is beautiful. Plain, yes, but that’s the point: “we got first choice, and we pick white”. A bit of a shame that NOBs and front numbers are required for international play at FIFA-sanctioned events.
I noticed the helmet numbers & jersey numbers didn’t match for San Diego & Denver.
Looks like that bowling story has a bad link…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As mentioned by Jim BC yesterday, Dan Aykroyd did the ceremonial puck drop at Friday’s Blackhawks-Devils game wearing a Hawks jersey with the misspelling “AKROYD” as the NOB.
Sorry for the repost, but I posted link pretty late last night.
An article in Sunday’s Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on the history of the Brewers’ “barrel man”:
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I like on the England kit website it has a little history of the Umbro logo during the loading screen.
Seeing the picture of the Brewers listing themselves as “Wild Card Champions” reminds me of the Rockies doing that back in 1996 for the 1995 season. The Rockies painted a pennant of sorts on the left outfield wall and I know it said the same thing, not just wild card, but “Wild Card Champions”, and that always irritated me the same way. Currently unable to find a pic of it myself.
[quote comment=”320159″]Seeing the picture of the Brewers listing themselves as “Wild Card Champions” reminds me of the Rockies doing that back in 1996 for the 1995 season. The Rockies painted a pennant of sorts on the left outfield wall and I know it said the same thing, not just wild card, but “Wild Card Champions”, and that always irritated me the same way. Currently unable to find a pic of it myself.[/quote]
Similar to celebrating a Regional Championship in the tourney…
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Hats and shirts, OK. A trophy? asinine.
1. Dennis Quaid hasn’t aged a bit!
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2. Paul said the Jags’ unis were going to better this year. What gives?
3. Those AFL uniforms are indeed classic sweetness.
4. Winning a regional championship is different than being “wild card champs.” There’s no such tournament as the “wild card tournament.” There is a tournament for each regional, and the winner is the champion.
Not sure if anyone has commented on this, but if you search “Cleveland Browns” in the Life archive there are an unusual number of nude pictures of team members.
Any idea why the Google people did not edit these pictures out of their archive?
[quote comment=”320161″]Paul said the Jags’ unis were going to better this year. What gives?
[/quote]
Nope. link that the update is a downgrade.
[quote comment=”320148″]Where can I find pictures of the new jags uniforms?[/quote]
Here you go.
link
[quote comment=”320161″]1. Dennis Quaid hasn’t aged a bit!
link
2. Paul said the Jags’ unis were going to better this year. What gives?
3. Those AFL uniforms are indeed classic sweetness.
4. Winning a regional championship is different than being “wild card champs.” There’s no such tournament as the “wild card tournament.” There is a tournament for each regional, and the winner is the champion.[/quote]
I just don’t remember them handing out those huge “Regional Champion” trophies until a year or two ago. To me, it’s one tournament of 65 teams with only one winner. Winning your region is just a step along the way.
[quote comment=”320164″][quote comment=”320148″]Where can I find pictures of the new jags uniforms?[/quote]
Here you go.
link
I’m sure I’m in the minority here, but I would love it if they wore that helmet with their now-obsolete uniforms. The helmet logo is one of the few things I dislike about that uni. Well, that and the black unitards.
Believe it or not NFL refs from 1941 – c.1947 also wore candy striped tops. I think the combos were black-white, green-white, orange-white and blue-white. I’ll have to dig and see exactly what was what.
If we’re doing sports uni research, game officials attire is every bit as important as the players’ togs.
Here’s a tip on NFL refs and when to pinpoint a year; up thru 1959, the official’s back number was red and blended right into the b/w stripes. Then from 1960 thru 1978, the ref’s numbers were the white roundies inside the black rectangular box. since 1979, the official’s position has been on his back above the #s (spelled out 1979-1981, initialed since 1982).
One last thing…AFL wise, I think the officials wore three different color caps; white, orange and black. I THINK the referee wore black, but our ace reporters can confirm/deny that.
1. Jags’ unis: Sorry, I misread Paul’s original post. A definite downgrade, if that’s what they look like. Horrid! Bring back more of the old AFL unis. Even the 1980s had good, solid unis.
2. Yes, an outsized regional trophy is outdoing it. But remember, we live in a society where everyone’s a winner, and everyone gets a trophy. I wonder if there’s a runnerup trophy too. ;)
Three points for using the Life archives.
– You can use the advance search function to reduce the search to color photos. I love the B&W photos but the color sets can be amazing.
– Don’t forget you can reduce the search field by eliminating terms. Use the advance search or just subtract terms from your search. (For example, if there’s some stuff you don’t want under “Texas” you could do a search with -Texas and those images will be removed from the search.
– As far as I can tell, each search is limited to 200 images returned. Is there a way around this?
Here’s my question. Does anyone have a good site that lists the jersey numbers worn by football players for a given year? There are some good baseball sites that do that but if I want to find out if link is Bubba Smith, I wind up looking at football card galleries.
D’oh. It wrapped on my example on eliminating terms. I was trying to say that if you put a hyphen in front of a word, it will eliminate items with that word.
So -Minnesota will eliminate items with Minnesota in their labels.
(Don’t want to mess with Texas twice.)
As promised, this article from the archives of the new York Times, July 20, 1941:
“…Futhermore, the officials will be obliged to appear in the new National (Football) League uniforms, designed with stripes to assist spectators in ascertaining which official is making a decision.
“Referees will wear black-and-white striped shirts. Red-and-white stripes shirts will designate the umpires in all National (Football) League games
[quote comment=”320170″]Here’s my question. Does anyone have a good site that lists the jersey numbers worn by football players for a given year? There are some good baseball sites that do that but if I want to find out if link is Bubba Smith, I wind up looking at football card galleries.[/quote]
I’m not aware of a site that provides that type of info. But there’s a book:
link
As promised, this article from the archives of the New York Times, July 20, 1941:
“…Futhermore, the officials will be obliged to appear in the new National (Football) League uniforms, designed with stripes to assist spectators in ascertaining which official is making a decision.
“Referees will wear black-and-white striped shirts. Red-and-white stripes shirts will designate the umpires in all National (Football) League games and the field judges will sport green and white. The headlinesmen’s colors will be orange and white. Numbers will adorn the backs of the shirts.
Official Cap Adopted
“For cold and rainy weather the outfit includes a mackinaw-length coat corresponding in design, color scheme and number with the shirts. Those desiring headpieces must wear the official cap, which is white with the National (Football) League shield in front.”
Regional champions is indeed a bit over doing it. When the regional champion gets blown out in the final four, will they still be just as delighted because hey, at least we’re the eastern bracket champions. In the post game interview, will they still be jumping up and down because theyre regional champs?
As for AL and NL champs, yeah, its a little different, best team of that league is commendable a few years down the road, but when they lose the WS are they still all elated they were NL/AL champs?
Wild card champions? Hey! We’re champions because…we made the playoffs?
I like the way the players do it better in the NHL with the east or west winners, they’re presented a trophy but more often than not the players don’t even touch the trophy/basically ignore it. Thanks but no thanks, we want our names on the cup.
[quote comment=”320173″][quote comment=”320170″]Here’s my question. Does anyone have a good site that lists the jersey numbers worn by football players for a given year? There are some good baseball sites that do that but if I want to find out if link is Bubba Smith, I wind up looking at football card galleries.[/quote]
I’m not aware of a site that provides that type of info. But there’s a book:
link
Paul,
According to the same pic in my 1985 (print) edition of ‘LIFE in Sports’, it’s Bubba. They even reprinted an Ogden Nash poem to go with it:
When hearing tales of Bubba Smith
You wonder is he man or myth
He’s a hoodoo, like a hex,
He’s like Tyrannosauraus Rex
Few manage to topple in a tussle
Three hundred pounds of hustle and muscle
He won’t complain if double-teamed
It isn’t Bubba who gets creamed
What gained this pair of underminers?
Only four Forty-niner shiners.
(He may have even written it for this photo …)
I’ve had this edition for years and it’s a treasure — though weirdly not available on Amazon. (Harper and Row Publishing — probably available on Bookfinder.com.) Completely un-indexed, but I certainly remember that great shot. I should toss up some scans from it someday.
what is this all star weekend? yesterday teebowski, and today the rickonator. wow, nice score phil. in regards to my painting last night, when it’s done, i am going to teach a colour theory class with you, only UW style.
my 2 cents on the afl refs…
i can only assume, and i am sure ricko suggested, that the hat colour differences in hats are due to the difference in ref “position”. same as it is today. line judges, back judges etc. wear one, the head referee wears another. this is not based in AFL fact, just logic. a fair assumption?
pic#1 i would argue that the referee is wearing stirrups, but under a pair of standard white hose. if you look at the pixture, you can see ribs around his ankle region, and those ribs sure do conveniently look like the shape of a stirrup. i don’t know, maybe he was progressive, maybe he was cold, but i think that jerk has socks on top of his stirrups just to f**k with us.
in general, i think the ref stripe size difference is due to the manufacture, and nothing else. especially when you consider the shoestring budget, and lack of standardization of that era.
as for colour, i know the ref stripes looks red, and as you suggested, that is just a function of the film of the era, a sort of technicolour effect if you will. which would also explain the charger blue issue too. it might not be right proper “powder”, but i would bet dollars to doughnuts that the colour isn’t true there either. film colours in that era tend to pick up more of the primary(red yellow blue)of what they shoot.
pic#3 i would argue that the stripes are of equal size, and if you see that differently, it is due to an optical illusion. colour can do that to you. for instance, you put two perfectly complimentary colours together, and they shimmy, or you remember those optical illusion tests from when you were a kid, right? is it two faces or a vase? does the cube move forward or back? shit like that. anyway, the stripes are the same size, they just appear to not be because jesus is fuckin’ with our perception. it is sunday after all, maybe he is pissed you ain’t at church.
do it move forward or back?!?!
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The 1961 photo referencing the Buffalo Bills versus Dallas Texans struck me as erroneous. The Bills there certainly look like the Oakland Raiders.
oops. i ment pic#4 not #3
i also meant meant, not ment. stupid vodka last night
The NCAA has been giving out “Regional Champions” trophies like that for decades. You can thank CBS for the modern levels of elevated hype, but it’s been going on for a long time.
Take it up with them, instead of working it into yet another lame-ass bitter-old-man whine about modern sports culture.
[quote comment=”320178″]The 1961 photo referencing the Buffalo Bills versus Dallas Texans struck me as erroneous. The Bills there certainly look like the Oakland Raiders.[/quote]
Pretty sure it’s the Bills. link are not the final authority, but I think they have it right in this case. Raiders wore black/gold back then — apparently due to Al Davis’ Army background.
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link
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Some old NFL refs in color.
I too had said I love the Life collection. Even though the search is rather odd. Like the more selection after finding photos.
Still it is great anf you really can get lost in the Life photos
[quote comment=”320181″]The NCAA has been giving out “Regional Champions” trophies like that for decades. You can thank CBS for the modern levels of elevated hype, but it’s been going on for a long time.
Take it up with them, instead of working it into yet another lame-ass bitter-old-man whine about modern sports culture.[/quote]
ha ha ha ghost. a pretty good point. but a bit ironic for someone calling himself the ghost of ross gload, no? i mean, after all your comment says people should stifle their wanting things to foolishly be as it was, while you conjure the ghost of a craptastic ball player that would be absurd to lament. i say this as someone who can throw a stone and hit US comiskular, and has seen to much of #17, so don’t get your ross gloads in a bunch.
by the way ghost, how great is stone with the hawk?! he balanced out farmer nicely, took the edge off the man who hates everything but mom, country, and the sox, but how great is it to have him on the air? btw, i once heard farmer rant for 20 minutes about how big the clock was at the skydome, and how much that bothered him. i bet he was a true ass-clown when he was still a drunk.
[quote comment=”320182″][quote comment=”320178″]The 1961 photo referencing the Buffalo Bills versus Dallas Texans struck me as erroneous. The Bills there certainly look like the Oakland Raiders.[/quote]
Pretty sure it’s the Bills. link are not the final authority, but I think they have it right in this case. Raiders wore black/gold back then — apparently due to Al Davis’ Army background.[/quote]
It is most definitely the Bills. They looked a lot like the Lions in 1960 and 1961. Plus one of the offensive linemen in that shot is Billy Shaw, a multi-All-AFL’er and IIRC, enshrined in Canton.
I’m surprised no one has mentioned how godawful the new adidas kits are. That Russia shirt has a zip up front and some sort of separate panel across the chest. Here’s the supposed new Bayern Munich kit for comparison.
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Also, I don’t like the ridiculous art on the Russian kits. Why is it every other adidas kit is terrible?
Some stuff from Life.
Ben Agajanian has link and check out his link (If this is 1947 he would be playing for the LA Dons.)
link Good shot of hat and sleeve patch.
link
link. No idea why these pictures exist. They’re dated 1968.
link. Check out the Old Style ad above Eller.
link
link. Nice view of the Wrigley Field ivy.
link. Check out the array of socks.
link. It’s a classic uniform. No, I mean it.
link. Good form. Who’d he play for? ;)
link
link
link
Those are some of the earliest color college football ones I have found. The top 2 are Ohio State at Purdue and Minnesota and Wisconsin below
The regional championships have some history behind them and are not creation of modern sports marketing. Before 1979, the NCAA tournament was, like today, broken into four regions (East; West; Midwest; and Mideast, which later became the Southeast and eventually South), but conference champions were tied to those regions every year. So if you won the ACC, you would always go to the East Region. The SEC champ would go to the Southeast, the Big Ten to the Midwest, the Pac-10 to the West, etc. You’d know going into the year that, if you won the ACC or the Southern Conference, you’d be in the East. Therefore, winning the region had special meaning, like winning your league in baseball or conference in the NFL. You were assigned to that region, period. At-large teams, which began in 1975, could go anywhere, but not automatic bid qualifiers.
I would say the regional championship thing is a holdover from that era.
[quote comment=”320177″]what is this all star weekend? yesterday teebowski[/quote]
The Big Teebowski?
Wow. I might have to copyright that name. LOL
[quote comment=”320148″]Where can I find pictures of the new jags uniforms?[/quote]
as far as i know, you can’t…yet
but i can tell you this…i have seen them, and they are AWFUCKINFUL
[quote]“Prexy” is a Variety slanguage word. It has no place in any blog or publication. Including Variety.[/quote]
thanks…that may indeed be so…it’s origins also trace back to 1828: “Etymology: prexy from prex, by shortening & alteration from ‘president’; Date: 1828“; i believe this use predates Variety
[quote]what is this all star weekend? yesterday teebowski, and today the rickonator. wow, nice score phil.[/quote]
just wait til tuesday… and when am i gonna feature a 33 and a third segment?
timmy & squiddie: thanks for the clarifications!
[quote comment=”320164″][quote comment=”320148″]Where can I find pictures of the new jags uniforms?[/quote]
Here you go.
link
Surely that’s a joke.
[quote comment=”320195″][quote comment=”320164″][quote comment=”320148″]Where can I find pictures of the new jags uniforms?[/quote]
Here you go.
link
Surely that’s a joke.[/quote]
it is, but those would be better than what’s coming
[quote comment=”320191″]The regional championships have some history behind them and are not creation of modern sports marketing. Before 1979, the NCAA tournament was, like today, broken into four regions (East; West; Midwest; and Mideast, which later became the Southeast and eventually South), but conference champions were tied to those regions every year. So if you won the ACC, you would always go to the East Region. The SEC champ would go to the Southeast, the Big Ten to the Midwest, the Pac-10 to the West, etc. You’d know going into the year that, if you won the ACC or the Southern Conference, you’d be in the East. Therefore, winning the region had special meaning, like winning your league in baseball or conference in the NFL. You were assigned to that region, period. At-large teams, which began in 1975, could go anywhere, but not automatic bid qualifiers.
I would say the regional championship thing is a holdover from that era.[/quote]
By the way, from 1975, when the NCAA started taking second teams from conferences in the tournament, until 1979, the second team, if there was one, would always go to another region than the conference champion. That way teams from the same conference could only meet in the Final Four, like they did in 1976 with Big 10 runnerup Michigan (Mideast) and Big 10 champ Indiana (Midwest). This stopped in 1979 and in fact you had UNC and Duke slated in the East Region that year (and they both lost in their opening games on “Black Sunday” in Raleigh). UCLA had always been in the West Region and was allowed to continue there in 1980, even though it was an at-large team for the first time ever, thanks to that rule. UCLA then promptly went back to the Final Four. In 1981 it went to the East for the first time, and lost early.
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I really like this pic of the Bills vs Texans.
An early shot of the Bills in color. Sweet
[quote comment=”320178″]The 1961 photo referencing the Buffalo Bills versus Dallas Texans struck me as erroneous. The Bills there certainly look like the Oakland Raiders.[/quote]
You were struck wrong. They look like the Bills. ’61 Raiders wore plain black helmets, and colors were black and light gold. Raiders didn’t change to silver until 1963. The Texans were the Chiefs by then.
No offense, but do your homework.
[quote comment=”320182″][quote comment=”320178″]The 1961 photo referencing the Buffalo Bills versus Dallas Texans struck me as erroneous. The Bills there certainly look like the Oakland Raiders.[/quote]
Pretty sure it’s the Bills. link are not the final authority, but I think they have it right in this case. Raiders wore black/gold back then — apparently due to Al Davis’ Army background.[/quote]
When the Raiders changed to the look the still wear now (starting in ’63), I thought they were old gold and black, a) because black and gold had been their colors for the first three season, b) because of Davis’ background at Army, and c) because that would make the ’63 look, generally, what Army was wearing at the time.
Fact is, though, Davis’ first year WAS ’63 and he’s the one who changed the colors FROM black and gold to silver and black. He had nothing to do with the original black and gold.
Back then, I even did one of my index card sketches, assuming the old gold. Then later, a play-by-play guy informed us they were silver and black. Here it is, my 46 year-old sketch of what I THOUGHT was the new Raiders uni…
link
(Black and white TV made it tough sometimes, LOL)
—Ricko
link
Titans
link
Oilers
link
Raiders
link
Chargers
link
Texans
link
Bills
link
Patriots
link
Broncos
Check out this facemask:
link
[quote comment=”320189″]Some stuff from Life.
Ben Agajanian has link and check out his link (If this is 1947 he would be playing for the LA Dons.)
[/quote]
I believe Bennie A had no toes on his kicking foot. Not sure if that was at birth or a result of an accident.
He is the answer to a trivia question. Who is the only person to play in the AAFC, NFL and AFL??
big teebowski/long island phil~
just went up the bar, and scored a couple tickets to the hawks/’couver game tonight. either of you want to fly to the city of big shoulders and drink whiskey and watch some hockey?
The Chargers wore “collegiate” blue (a shade between Columbia/”powder” and royal) through 1966. They switched to navy blue for 1967, then went to “powder” blue for 1968-73 before the change to royal blue for 1974. (Side note: Had he not chosen to retire in July ’74, Johnny Unitas would have been wearing the Chargers’ new blue helmet and gold facemask during the coming season. Ugh.)
What has really irritated Chargers fans is that the team has chosen the 1968-73 blue as the basis for their throwback unis, as well as the third color in their current jerseys. I purchased the “throwback” variant of customizable jersey a few years back, and it is definitely NOT “collegiate” blue (though it still looks better than the hideous unis they regularly wore). The ’63 Chargers jersey Norv Turner was holding up at the photo op looks more “collegiate” than “powder” – let’s hope.
As for the Bills’ and Raiders’ unis…Bills owner Ralph Wilson is a native of Detroit, so his first two Bills teams wore Lions-like unis. And the Raiders indeed wore black and gold until Big Al came on the scene in ’63.
[quote comment=”320203″][quote comment=”320189″]Some stuff from Life.
Ben Agajanian has link and check out his link (If this is 1947 he would be playing for the LA Dons.)
[/quote]
I believe Bennie A had no toes on his kicking foot. Not sure if that was at birth or a result of an accident.
He is the answer to a trivia question. Who is the only person to play in the AAFC, NFL and AFL??[/quote]
You’re right about Agajanian. His toes were crushed in an accident.
Hardy Brown also played in all three leagues with one season for Denver. I think they’re the only two.
not sure if anyone is paying attention…but…
tiger’s back
Werner, the official ladder of NCAA basketball? Wow, even I think that’s going too far!
there is a tiger at the paint drying? meh.
[quote comment=\”320200\”][quote comment=\”320182\”][quote comment=\”320178\”]The 1961 photo referencing the Buffalo Bills versus Dallas Texans struck me as erroneous. The Bills there certainly look like the Oakland Raiders.[/quote]
Pretty sure it\’s the Bills. These guys are not the final authority, but I think they have it right in this case. Raiders wore black/gold back then — apparently due to Al Davis\’ Army background.[/quote]
When the Raiders changed to the look the still wear now (starting in \’63), I thought they were old gold and black, a) because black and gold had been their colors for the first three season, b) because of Davis\’ background at Army, and c) because that would make the \’63 look, generally, what Army was wearing at the time.
Fact is, though, Davis\’ first year WAS \’63 and he\’s the one who changed the colors FROM black and gold to silver and black. He had nothing to do with the original black and gold.
Back then, I even did one of my index card sketches, assuming the old gold. Then later, a play-by-play guy informed us they were silver and black. Here it is, my 46 year-old sketch of what I THOUGHT was the new Raiders uni…
link
(Black and white TV made it tough sometimes, LOL)
—Ricko[/quote]
Thanks for clearing up the Davis/Black-Gold timing. Not sure where I heard about the Army/Raider connection, but always good to have erroneous information debunked.
Even cooler that the franchise doesn\’t really have to change its look much to do the AFL Throwback thing. Classic is classic.
Of course, that\’s about the only thing we old school Raider fans can celebrate lately …
So when did the Raiders add the stripe to the original black helmet?
Now this is a pretty matchup.
UNC in their whites, Oklahoma in their reds. Pretty.
[quote comment=”320201″]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/Larrymb/61NewYorkTitans.jpg?t=1238356769
Titans
link
Oilers
link
Raiders
link
Chargers
link
Texans
link
Bills
link
Patriots
link
Broncos[/quote]
I LOVE this guy’s work; I hope I’ve made that clear by now…but the ’60 Chargers should be royal, if anything a dark royal.
And the Raiders is just WAY wrong. Change number and helmet stripe to light gold and it would be pretty close to the one-year-wonder ’62 set. But ’60 and ’61 was quite different (think same era Bears in black and light gold).
—Ricko
Maybe this is basic info that I’ve somehow missed but are the NCAA hoops teams not allowed to wear a swoosh, etc on their tops and they must be on the shorts?
This has to do with yesterdays article about college hockey jerseys. Sometime last summer I decided I wanted a Brigham Young University hockey jersey (i currently attend BYU). They are a club team and have only been around since the mid 90’s. Since their inception they were just called the “IceCats,” however a couple years ago they got endorsement status or something (I’m not sure what it’s called) which basically meant they could use the BYU name and logos etc. while still being a club team.
So after searching online for one, I was unable to find it. It’s hard enough finding prominent college hockey teams jerseys, much less club teams. So I emailed the coach. He was more than happy to help me as an interested fan. He said he didn’t have any jerseys but that his supplier had a few extras from their order that were not being used. So I emailed the supplier, she as well was more than happy to help me. It was 90 bucks for a blank, but for 30 bucks more i could have it personalized, so of course I did.
Bulding on yesterdays discussion, since BYU is a club team and not under the NCAA I guess the jersey customization is perfectly okay. Anyway I got the jersey last summer but have not had a reason to discuss it here until yesterday, heres how it looks in the team pic:
link
and here’s mine:
Front: link
Back: link
I don’t usually wear it on campus because people would think im actually on the team. Probably because only a couple hundred people go the games and not one of them is wearing a BYU jersey, only the players on the ice.
On a somewhat related but separate note I got my hands on the following Guinness hockey jersey and proudly wore it on St. Patty’s Day. I’m not sure what the origin of it is (i got it off eBay) but man does it have an awesome shoulder patch:
Front: link
Back: link
Shoulder: link
sorry for picture quality, they were shots i just took on my phone
[quote comment=”320210″]Werner, the official ladder of NCAA basketball? Wow, even I think that’s going too far![/quote]
That’s one of those “forehead slap” moment for the NCAA and marketers. Duh, we’ve got these shots of all the kids cutting down the nets, how can we make more money off them? OFFICIAL SPONSORS OF THE LADDERS!!
Now we just need official sponsors of the scissors too.
Those football figures as I said before were from a few years ago. my brother found them on ebay and he knew I would love them and looking at them. I did buy 7 of them. 4 Ohio State guys. Canton Bulldogs, Akron Pros and Youngstown Patricians. But as Ricko sad there are some mistakes. Still they are pretty darn neat little figures. I had saved a bunch of them and had posted some before. it is good to see from here about the complete accuracy. from guys that know.
I have no idea why he quit selling them.
[quote comment=”320194″]
thanks…that may indeed be so…it’s origins also trace back to 1828: “Etymology: prexy from prex, by shortening & alteration from ‘president’; Date: 1828“; i believe this use predates Variety[/quote]
Was it Phil Hartman who would parody Ed McMahon? Anyway, in that voice…
YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!!
[quote comment=”320206″]The Chargers wore “collegiate” blue (a shade between Columbia/”powder” and royal) through 1966. They switched to navy blue for 1967, then went to “powder” blue for 1968-73 before the change to royal blue for 1974. (Side note: Had he not chosen to retire in July ’74, Johnny Unitas would have been wearing the Chargers’ new blue helmet and gold facemask during the coming season. Ugh.)
What has really irritated Chargers fans is that the team has chosen the 1968-73 blue as the basis for their throwback unis, as well as the third color in their current jerseys. I purchased the “throwback” variant of customizable jersey a few years back, and it is definitely NOT “collegiate” blue (though it still looks better than the hideous unis they regularly wore). The ’63 Chargers jersey Norv Turner was holding up at the photo op looks more “collegiate” than “powder” – let’s hope.
As for the Bills’ and Raiders’ unis…Bills owner Ralph Wilson is a native of Detroit, so his first two Bills teams wore Lions-like unis. And the Raiders indeed wore black and gold until Big Al came on the scene in ’63.[/quote]
Ed. E — why the fuss over the new blues? When I lived in San Diego we screamed for those throwback blues (a la UCLA blue, or the color of the sky in San Diego when the marine layer isn’t there).
[quote comment=”320213″]So when did the Raiders add the stripe to the original black helmet?[/quote]
1962
thanks timmy b
Sorry, LarryB, I thought I’d sort of answered that when I talked about changing the stripe ino the figurine to light gold.
Anyway, here are my Raider cards made at the time, for the first three years, prior to the silver and black we now know so well.
(Gold is wrong shade for ’60. Too “Vegas,” not enough “Light Gold”. As I said, it was difficult working just from B&W TV until I saw the first color football cards in the summer of ’61).
link
link
—Ricko
and amidst all this talk of all things AFL, one of the most important coaches in AFL history, Lou Saban, has passed away.
[quote comment=”320225″]Sorry, LarryB, I thought I’d sort of answered that when I talked about changing the stripe ino the figurine to light gold.
Anyway, here are my Raider cards made at the time, for the first three years, prior to the silver and black we now know so well.
[quote comment=\”320225\”]Sorry, LarryB, I thought I\’d sort of answered that when I talked about changing the stripe ino the figurine to light gold.
Anyway, here are my Raider cards made at the time, for the first three years, prior to the silver and black we now know so well.
(Gold is wrong shade for \’60. Too \”Vegas,\” not enough \”Light Gold\”. As I said, it was difficult working just from B&W TV until I saw the first color football cards in the summer of \’61).
link
link
—Ricko[/quote]
Ya thanks Ricko I saw that but I guess was not thinking.
Great stuff today by all in column and comments.
Thanks
(Gold is wrong shade for ’60. Too “Vegas,” not enough “Light Gold”. As I said, it was difficult working just from B&W TV until I saw the first color football cards in the summer of ’61).
link
link
—Ricko[/quote]
Ya thanks Ricko I saw that but I guess was not thinking.
Great stuff today by all in column and comments.
Thanks
And man I envy you guys who are talented artists.
Stick figures are the limit of my drwaing ability.
The neat thing about Ricko’s drawings was not just doing them but saving them.
eye of the tiger!
[quote comment=”320226″]and amidst all this talk of all things AFL, one of the most important coaches in AFL history, Lou Saban, has passed away.[/quote]
Indeed. Original head coach of the Boston Patriots, which means he coached the first regular season AFL game ever. Friday night, September 9, 1960, Boston University Field. Broncos beat the Patriots, 13-10, on a 76-yard third quarter Gene Mingo punt return. Attendance: 21,597.
Ed “Butch” Songin started at QB for the Patriots.
—Ricko
was just looking thru some old AFL pics, ricko & tim, when i noticed your note…
this must be one of the second ever AFL games, texans at LA chargers, sept. 10, 1960
orig caption: “Dallas Texans halfback Johnny Robinson (42) is brought down and tackled on a 14 yard gain by Los Angeles Chargers Dick Harris (36) and Ron Nery (80) in the first quarter of the Chargers-Texan game. Texan Jack Spike (30) and Marvin Terrell (63) in front of the tacklers.”
[quote comment=”320231″]was just looking thru some old AFL pics, ricko & tim, when i noticed your note…
this must be one of the second ever AFL games, link, sept. 10, 1960
orig caption: “Dallas Texans halfback Johnny Robinson (42) is brought down and tackled on a 14 yard gain by Los Angeles Chargers Dick Harris (36) and Ron Nery (80) in the first quarter of the Chargers-Texan game. Texan Jack Spike (30) and Marvin Terrell (63) in front of the tacklers.”[/quote]
Great photo!!! And yeah, there was more than one night game that first weekend, I remember. Simple arithmetic (and logic) would be that the remaining two openers were telecast that Sunday on ABC. Honestly, I remember seeing “highlights” of a Charger home night game. Could well have been footage from the game in that photo, and that first Sunday that I saw them. Wow. I remember former Colt RB Royce Womble had a big game for the Chargers.
#19 in bkgd is Cotton Davidson (not Joe Montana, who much later wore 19 for that franchise, LOL). He preceded Len Dawson at QB for the Texans before moving on to the Raiders.
—Ricko
[quote comment=”320231″]was just looking thru some old AFL pics, ricko & tim, when i noticed your note…
this must be one of the second ever AFL games, link, sept. 10, 1960
orig caption: “Dallas Texans halfback Johnny Robinson (42) is brought down and tackled on a 14 yard gain by Los Angeles Chargers Dick Harris (36) and Ron Nery (80) in the first quarter of the Chargers-Texan game. Texan Jack Spike (30) and Marvin Terrell (63) in front of the tacklers.”[/quote]
Johnny Robinson had been Billy Cannon’s backfield mate at LSU, and the Texans first tried him on offense. When moved to DB, he went on to become a member of the all-time AFL team. He was still playing DB for Chiefs when they beat Vikings in SB IV.
—Ricko
One more thing and I’ll keep my trap shut about the early AFL for tonight. Was thinking today that in that first year of 1960, only two teams wore their same dark socks home and road: the Chargers and the Titans. The other six all had white versions for the road (including brown & white verticals for the Broncos).
—Ricko
[quote comment=”320226″]and amidst all this talk of all things AFL, one of the most important coaches in AFL history, Lou Saban, has passed away.[/quote]
“My daughter could do better! My daughter could do better! Your kids are …”
[quote comment=”320231″]was just looking thru some old AFL pics, ricko & tim, when i noticed your note…
this must be one of the second ever AFL games, link, sept. 10, 1960
orig caption: “Dallas Texans halfback Johnny Robinson (42) is brought down and tackled on a 14 yard gain by Los Angeles Chargers Dick Harris (36) and Ron Nery (80) in the first quarter of the Chargers-Texan game. Texan Jack Spike (30) and Marvin Terrell (63) in front of the tacklers.”[/quote]
Couple of notes on the Texans in that shot….
1. check the micro thinness (sp?) on the pant stripes.
2. note the WHITE socks on the Texans (also worn in 1961)
3. And the big story…NO names on the backs of the Texans jerseys! From what I’ve seen, the Titans, Raiders, Patriots (at least) did not start out 1960 with NOB’s.
Awesome find, LI Phil and thanks for sharing!
[quote comment=”320226″]and amidst all this talk of all things AFL, one of the most important coaches in AFL history, Lou Saban, has passed away.[/quote]
They finally got him, Whitey.
Okay, ONE more post. Notice Jack Spikes’ square toed shoe? I found the game stats at pro-football-reference.com, and he was the Texans’ plackicker. Chargers won, 21-10. Their kicker was Ben Agajanian, who was mentioned here today.
Royce Womble had 7 catches for 92 yards.
(My memory is really creepy sometimes.)
—Ricko
[quote comment=”320238″]They finally got him, Whitey.[/quote]What’s more, you GOTTA get it done.
[quote]One more thing and I’ll keep my trap shut about the early AFL for tonight[/quote]
actually, i kinda wish you and timmy b. would keep talking about the AFL all night
[quote comment=”320244″]Hey, Phil…Search “Boston Patriots 1960” at Corbis and you get a great high angle photo of that first ever game in Boston…Broncos vs. Pats.
—Ricko[/quote]
this one?
was funny, i was looking at that one earlier this evening
original caption for above:
[quote]Boston: Boston Patriots halfback, Larry Garran (#46), drives around his own right and for 5 yard gain in 1st period of Denver Bronco’s, Patriot’s game. The underdog Bronco’s defeated the Patriots, 13-10.[/quote]
and yup…9/9/60
and here’s that photo ricko was trying to post:
Check out the officials unis in this photo…
caption: [quote]Dallas Texans’ Johnny Robinson (HB, 42) dives through the air for a four yard gain in the first quarter of the game with Oakland Raiders at Kezar Stadium. Behind Robinson is teammate Sherrill Headrick (lb, 69). Raiders moving in are Joe Barbee (G, 77), Ray Armstrong (G, 66) and Larry Barnes (E, 52).[/quote]
july 31, 1960 (obviously a preseason game)
Now search “Johnny Robinson diving” and you should find a Texans-Raiders game at Kezar from 1960 (Raiders didn’t move to Candlestick until last three games, after Giants season had ended). And, of course, they played all their games at Candlestick in ’61. Didn’t actually play in Oakland until ’62 at Frank Youell Field, a temporary home until Oakland Alameda County Stadium Complex was ready for ’63.
Anyway, the point is, check out the official’s shirt.
—Ricko
[quote comment=”320248″]Now search “Johnny Robinson diving” and you should find a Texans-Raiders game at Kezar from 1960 (Raiders didn’t move to Candlestick until last three games, after Giants season had ended). And, of course, they played all their games at Candlestick in ’61. Didn’t actually play in Oakland until ’62 at Frank Youell Field, a temporary home until Oakland Alameda County Stadium Complex was ready for ’63.
Anyway, the point is, check out the official’s shirt.
—Ricko[/quote]
Way ahead of me. Thanks.
Corey Wimberly cut by the A’s today :-(
[quote comment=”320241″][quote]One more thing and I’ll keep my trap shut about the early AFL for tonight[/quote]
actually, i kinda wish you and timmy b. would keep talking about the AFL all night[/quote]
I as thinking the same thing. It is fun to learn more about the early days of the AFL.
On a side note. Man that Rita Hayworth was HOT. I had TCM on some and I hate musicals but Rita Hayworth sure is nice to look at. Fred Astaire movies with Rita on now.
I was at today’s Georgetown-St. John’s game at Citi Field. The game was shifted from DC. Georgetown wore home whites and St. John’s wore red caps and shirts.
At the door inside one the shops by the Jackie Robinson Rotunda is a Jackie Robinson uniform for sale: “Brooklyn” (but no number) on the front; Robinson’s number and last name on the back. I think it was link disgrace.
[quote comment=”320217″]This has to do with yesterdays article about college hockey jerseys. Sometime last summer I decided I wanted a Brigham Young University hockey jersey[/quote]
Wow! I really like that BYU jersey! The font on the back should be something a little more impressive, but I still like it! Nice choice, Cory!
Anybody mention the pens ditching the blue alternates for the rest of the season? They were scheduled to wear them yesterday against the rangers. Their record when wearing them was 3-5-2.
link
Hockey tidbit: There’s an link in yesterday’s (Sat.) Denver Post about when the Nordiques moved to Denver.
The second question asks what uniforms were given to the new 1995 draftees of the yet to be named team. The original name was going to be “Rocky Mountain Extreme” but everyone hated it. Before “Avalanche” became official, first pick Marc Denis wore a generic NHL shirt with “Colorado NHL” on it.
Thank God they didn’t stick with Extreme. Kinda screams minor league, eh? (Although that’s the way they’re playing right now…)
[quote comment=”320230″][quote comment=”320226″]and amidst all this talk of all things AFL, one of the most important coaches in AFL history, Lou Saban, has passed away.[/quote]
Indeed. Original head coach of the Boston Patriots, which means he coached the first regular season AFL game ever. Friday night, September 9, 1960, Boston University Field. Broncos beat the Patriots, 13-10, on a 76-yard third quarter Gene Mingo punt return. Attendance: 21,597.
Ed “Butch” Songin started at QB for the Patriots.
—Ricko[/quote]
My college coach, Oscar Loften, was the very first person to score a TD in the AFL, he played TE/WR for the Patriots. Not sure if the “first TD” was preseason or regular season.
Was the bears logo on the pennant an official logo?
link
[quote comment=”320256″][quote comment=”320230″][quote comment=”320226″]and amidst all this talk of all things AFL, one of the most important coaches in AFL history, Lou Saban, has passed away.[/quote]
Indeed. Original head coach of the Boston Patriots, which means he coached the first regular season AFL game ever. Friday night, September 9, 1960, Boston University Field. Broncos beat the Patriots, 13-10, on a 76-yard third quarter Gene Mingo punt return. Attendance: 21,597.
Ed “Butch” Songin started at QB for the Patriots.
—Ricko[/quote]
My college coach, Oscar Loften, was the very first person to score a TD in the AFL, he played TE/WR for the Patriots. Not sure if the “first TD” was preseason or regular season.[/quote]
Wow! Oscar Lofton? One of my favorite names from AFL Year One. Never have seen a photo of the guy, though. Been looking a long time, too. Don’t even know what number he wore. Think it might have been 86, but can’t swear to it.
Seems to me I knew that about him scoring first AFL TD, but it musta been preseason cuz he didn’t score in that Pats-Broncos AFL opener.
Here’s the game summary (btw, this is great site for those who haven’t discovered it yet)…
link
—Ricko
[quote comment=”320200″][quote comment=”320182″][quote comment=”320178″]The 1961 photo referencing the Buffalo Bills versus Dallas Texans struck me as erroneous. The Bills there certainly look like the Oakland Raiders.[/quote]
Pretty sure it’s the Bills. link are not the final authority, but I think they have it right in this case. Raiders wore black/gold back then — apparently due to Al Davis’ Army background.[/quote]
When the Raiders changed to the look the still wear now (starting in ’63), I thought they were old gold and black, a) because black and gold had been their colors for the first three season, b) because of Davis’ background at Army, and c) because that would make the ’63 look, generally, what Army was wearing at the time.
Fact is, though, Davis’ first year WAS ’63 and he’s the one who changed the colors FROM black and gold to silver and black. He had nothing to do with the original black and gold.
Back then, I even did one of my index card sketches, assuming the old gold. Then later, a play-by-play guy informed us they were silver and black. Here it is, my 46 year-old sketch of what I THOUGHT was the new Raiders uni…
link
(Black and white TV made it tough sometimes, LOL)
—Ricko[/quote]
Just a comment on those 1963 Raiders unis- although they did go to the silver helmets and pants, they had gold numbers on the white jerseys-
link
What was really striking about those jerseys was the thickness of the black trim on those numbers- it was REALLY thick (not at all thin like it’s shown in the drawing above). I don’t think I’ve seen any photos of their black jersey from that season, so I assume the drawing is correct on that one.
[quote comment=”320257″]Was the bears logo on the pennant an official logo?
link
AFAIK, the answer is no.