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Auction Action, Part 1

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It’s been a while since I’ve run a selection of uni-related items up for auction at Leland’s. Their current auction, which runs through June 6th, is divided up into two separate catalogs — one devoted to objects and another devoted to photographs — and there’s a ton of great stuff in both categories, so I’m going to divide my coverage into two entries. Today I’ll look at physical objects; a subsequent entry (maybe as soon as tomorrow, maybe next week) will look at the photos. I assure you both entries will feature enough material to stand on their own.

Off we go:

• Here’s another one of those experimental satin uniforms, which several teams used for night games. Details and additional photos here.

• I never saw a game at Three Rivers Stadium, so I never saw this sign (details here). You know what part of the illustration I like best.

• I’ve written before about World Series press pins. Here are some gorgeous examples from the 1920s (details here). And there’s a whole separate category: World Series clubhouse passes — hadn’t seen those before. Love the die-cut shape (details here).

• Love this beautiful batch of 1933 hockey cards (details here). And these 1961 basketball cards are even nicer (details here).

• I’ve always loved the simplicity of this NHL All-Star Game uniform. Look at those grommets! (Details and additional pics here.)

• Really interesting batch of European and Russian hockey jerseys here (with details and additional pics here).

• It’s always weird to see cowboy imagery mixed with hockey. Cases in point: the Calgary Cowboys (details here) and the Denver Spurs (details here, and here’s the road version).

• Check out this old Montreal Canadiens portrait (details here). I especially like the coaches’ sweaters.

• This painting of Jack Dempsey (details here) is interesting. Instead of the usual elasticized waistband on the trunks, it appears that he had a belt or sash running through real belt loops.

• Speaking of boxing, remember when fighters wore tights, instead of trunks? Then check out these figurines (details here).

• Lots to like in this 1938 Detroit Lions jersey: the long sleeves, the huge uni number, and check out all those buttons on the crotch tab. Great label, too. Details here.

• You have got to be kidding me.

More to come soon.

Wanna Be a Designer?: Reader T.J. Leibowitz has an interesting proposition for you all:

My high school is getting new lacrosse uniforms next year, and our coach has asked the players to design the uniforms. This should really be a dream come true for me. Frankly, though, I’m tapped for ideas, so I thought I’d throw it out here and see if any Uni Watch readers can contribute a good design for us. This would be good for me (hopefully a good enough design from the Uni Watch faithful will mean no “mustang” design; I really would rather not be the Denver Broncos of high school lacrosse) and good for Uni Watch (the site would be having an actual impact on uniform design, if only at the high school level).

Here’s the web site for Z-Wear, our uniform supplier, and their lacrosse uniform creator. However, a sales rep for Z-Wear told us that they can also use the football patterns and scale them for lacrosse jerseys, so you can play around with the football uni creator if you prefer the styles there.

I’m trying to find exactly what our league uniform rules are (I’ve downloaded every PDF on the THSLL site, but to no avail), but I’m pretty sure most number/font choices can be scaled to fit.

I originally posted all of this in the comments, and I got some great suggestions, but many of them involved trim colors that our athletic department simply will not allow. So please note that our school colors are green and white, and that they can NOT be tinkered with. Additionally, we have an athletic department standard for font (it’s not available on the uni creator and I’m not quite sure what it is, but I’ll deal with it later). Aside from that, you’re free to roam.

If you come up with something, please e-mail me. Either a screen shot or plain text listing of what your choices are is fine.

Uni Watch News Ticker: Interesting note from Pat Duffy, who writes: “A site I write for will be running a contest over the next two weeks to find people who have rare Buffalo Bills jerseys, stories, and weird memorabilia. We’re going to display the pictures of the coolest stuff we get all week, including things from other teams, and there will be a Bills-themed prize (looks like a either a jersey, or a pair of tickets to the VIP night practice at Bills training camp). We have some photos of rare Bills jerseys and memorabilia posted now, which might interest Uni Watch readers.” ”¦ Speaking of contests, the University of Florida is holding a competition for students to design next season’s student section T-shirt. Details here (with thanks to Evan Goldfarb). ”¦ Add the 1980 Tacoma Tigers to the list of all-time ugly uniforms (with thanks to John English). ”¦ AS Saint Etienne is outfitted by Adidas. And, as Jeremy Brahm notes, their logo has three stripes. Coincidence? ”¦ The Orioles stirrups that I wore the other day reminded Paul Wiederecht of another set of orange-based hose: the set worn by the Colt .45s. ”¦ Here’s a rarity: an Expos pillbox cap (with thanks to Scott Schul). ”¦ A few days ago I mentioned that the Lions will be wearing a “75 Seasons” patch this year. Now comes word that they’ll be wearing throwbacks for two days (with thanks to Doug Mooney and Yakki Cohen). ”¦ Here’s a better shot of Eric Gagne’s high-pants look. ”¦ Joseph Chiaccio reports that the Rays will be wearing St. Petersburg Pelicans throwbacks on June 21st. ”¦ Did you know Mike Piazza once wore No. 25 with the Dodgers? I didn’t, until Paul Kamras sent me this. ”¦ Chris Dias notes that NBA tights appear to be making a comeback. ”¦ “Tuesday night’s game between the Greenville Drive (Red Sox affiliate) and the Charleston River Dogs (Yankees farm club) featured both teams wearing the uniforms of their MLB parent clubs,” writes Ronnie Poore. “Of course, no retired numbers were allowed, so several guys had to have new numbers.” Dozens of additional photos here. ”¦ The logo for the 2010 Men’s World Volleyball Championship in Italy will look like this (with thanks to Jeremy Brahm). ”¦ Also from Jeremy: Logo trouble at the Olympics. ”¦ John Muir reports that British Airways held a fashion show of its past and present uniforms on Wednesday in Tokyo, to mark the 60th anniversary celebration of the launch of the company’s service to Japan. ”¦ Notes from yesterday’s Chelsea/ManU match in Moscow, courtesy of Morris Levin: “Chelsea wore lower-case NOBs; because it wasn’t a Premier League match, the teams could do what they wanted with number and name fonts, so both teams used different ones than normal; both teams wore the Euro equivalent of championship game patches with multi-line embroidery on the front of the kits; and the Chelsea goalkeeper was not only wearing a road-crew bright-orange uniform but also full padded headgear. He played well but looked terrible.” All of these details are on display in this gallery. ”¦ Many of you have expressed doubt that the Tigers ever wore this jersey, but look — proof! ”¦ Anyone who thinks I get too much positive feedback (or who just wants a good laugh) should read the comments at the end of this piece. ”¦ Looks like they needed a blood jersey — and also some blood pants — last night in San Diego. ”¦ Tim Duncan and Gregg Popovich appear to have a very special relationship (big thanks to Ronald Covert). ”¦ Big Klu’s daughter? Nope, it’s a member of the Wilson Memorial High School softball team in Virginia (nice find by Steve Hicks). ”¦ For those of you who remember my old zine: Beer Frame may be dead, but the T-shirt lives again. … And speaking of T-shirts, if you missed yesterday’s entry, check out all the cool new Uni Watch tees for sale here.

 
  
 
Comments (148)

    Chelsea’s keeper, Petr Cech, was wearing the headgear because of a skull fracture suffered in a game last year against Reading. He’s had it since his return. Chelsea’s kit is next year’s model–their 2007-2008 jersey had no collar and no yellow. Cech is usually outfitted in black, but the goalkeeper uni is a preview of next season, also.

    For the lacrosse uniforms, the THSLL website says you use NCAA rules. Below are the applicable sections from the 2008 rulebook.
    b. Jerseys. The jerseys shall have numbers that are at least 6 inches high
    and centered on the front. Jersey numbers of at least 8 inches in height
    also must be centered on the back. It is recommended strongly that the
    jersey numbers be increased to heights of not less than 10 inches on
    the front and 12 inches on the back, when team jerseys are replaced by
    2009.
    c. Shorts. All players on the same team must wear uniform shorts of the
    same dominant official team color.

    I can’t get that lacrosse e-mail to work. It keeps telling me it does not exist. Can anyone help with this?

    So Paul, are you going to take any of the “constructive criticism” in the ESPN article comments to heart? Yikes.

    [quote comment=”272418″]Chelsea’s keeper, Petr Cech, was wearing the headgear because of a skull fracture suffered in a game last year against Reading. He’s had it since his return. Chelsea’s kit is next year’s model–their 2007-2008 jersey had no collar and no yellow. Cech is usually outfitted in black, but the goalkeeper uni is a preview of next season, also.[/quote]

    also, patch worn in the Man Utd/Chelsea match wasn’t a championship patch, it’s the Champions League patch and has been worn all tourney by every team participating, not a patch worn simply for the final game

    Interesting note concerning the Minor league game here:

    link

    link

    It seems that both teams wore the jerseys and batting practice caps of their parent clubs however kept their normal piped pants!

    [quote comment=”272425″]So Paul, are you going to take any of the “constructive criticism” in the ESPN article comments to heart? Yikes.[/quote]

    Doesn’t bother me. People are entitled to their opinions, and I knew the piece wouldn’t be popular. People don’t like to have their perceptions of reality challenged. It’s interesting to see how many people happily accept the St. Piazza myth and swallow it whole, however. The mere suggestion that he might have been a selfish boor really sends people up a wall.

    Can anyone give me a good website that allows you to design baseball jerseys online?

    That old Canadiens team photo is one of the most dignified, beautifully composed, artful presentations of a sports team I’ve ever seen. And, yes, the sweaters are grand.

    And I love the way the 1961 NBA cards provide such a great, noirish look to the many characters of the league. As a kid, that’s the stuff the fuels the imagination.

    And a reappearance of the mysterious LA Laker giraffe!

    T.J– I tried to send you a uniform design but the email address has errors.

    Watching the Champions League final yesterday it was funny to see that Chelsea had the gold writing on the front of the jersey in one area and also had the star ball logo.
    link

    While Manchester had to put it long ways and without the star ball because of the nike logo
    link

    [quote comment=”272429″][quote comment=”272425″]So Paul, are you going to take any of the “constructive criticism” in the ESPN article comments to heart? Yikes.[/quote]

    Doesn’t bother me. People are entitled to their opinions, and I knew the piece wouldn’t be popular. People don’t like to have their perceptions of reality challenged. It’s interesting to see how many people happily accept the St. Piazza myth and swallow it whole, however. The mere suggestion that he might have been a selfish boor really sends people up a wall.[/quote]

    The problem is that you could have written:
    1. His “at bat” music and rock star persona was too much to handle
    2. After swinging so hard, he watched his moon ball too long
    3. He never looked good when wearing a real met hat (instead of a catcher’s helmet)

    … and those points would have been as valid as the ones you provided.

    Hey – on the image of the Colt .45 catchers – (sorry for this) look between their legs. Are those dots snaps or buttons or is it simply an issue with the photograph?

    I wasn’t too crazy about the Page 2 piece, but not necessarily because of the topic. Paul, that’s your opinion and believe me, I know how it can be to take an unpopular stance on a topic.

    I’m more critical of Page 2 and ESPN in general. It seems that Page 2 has gone from a really good, alternative source for solid sports journalism to a website that looks like it’s trying to hard to be funny, edgy and satirical. (I prefer EXTRA MUSTARD on SI.com these days) DJ Gallo’s style belongs on The Onion, Scoop Jackson’s style God awful (Jason Whitlock has called him out more than once on this), Jamelle Hill writes some good stuff but I think too often she writes the same story (race).

    I think the Piazza piece reads more like an angry message board poster, rather than an Internet columnist. And while I think a lot of the comments are over the top, I think there is validity to the point that ESPN will look at this column as a success because of the buzz it created with all the comments.

    Paul, I couldn’t agree with you more about Piazza. I’m just glad that you didn’t say something like “its a shame Clemens didn’t actually hit him with that bat.”

    People ARE entitled to their opinions. Definitely.

    The Greenville/Charleston game was well uniformed but it appeares that the Yankees have a goldish piping on their pants. Yankees uniform purists must be going nuts.

    link

    Paul:

    I know nothing about Mike Piazza, so I don’t have much opinion on the article, but I thoroughly enjoyed the comments. In particular I like the comments from deekay31. First he writes this:
    “Go kill yourself Paul Lukas… if you were a real Mets fan, you would have appreciated him for everything that he did.”

    His request that you take your own life is funny in itself, but four minutes later he follows up with this:
    “I hate you Paul Lukas, if I saw you on the street, Id hurt you… what was the point of your column except to spew out hate and venom for a guy, and for what? Bc he didnt want to play 1B? Bc he didnt confront the media about his heterosexuality the way you wanted him to? Youre real pathetic. I hope Piazza finds you and does to you what he did to Mota.”

    So was he just sitting there for four minutes fuming over the article before he just couldn’t take it anymore and had to comment again? Hilarious.

    say what you will about paul’s espn piece and it’s comments…but i will say this

    paul is a man of his convictions, and he backs up his words (for the most part) with facts, (and of course opinions)…you have to separate the two

    he made a rational, albeit emotionally charged diatribe on why piazza wasn’t always god himself and after reading his comments, he certainly did give me pause

    i remember the good piazza things: the 9/21/01 homer against the bravos, taking roidger for a granny in one of those insufferable mets-yanks interplague games, almost single-handedly reestablishing the mets as a team of respectability in 1998, etc.

    but there were also those piazza moments we’d like to forget, like his bad die jobs, and the endless speculation (which he didn’t really squelch until that press conference) on his sexual preferences, and many other off-the-field things…but those were off the field

    true, he couldn’t run or throw for shit, but he was pretty good behind the dish in his signal calling and his ability to get in front of the errant pitch…and he did invent (or at least popularize) link everyone seems to wear now (knee savers?)

    but, like all famous players, you have to take the good with the bad, and remember the good with the bad, and maybe i choose to remember the moon shots and not the stolen bases and slides bad baserunning…im glad paul reminded us (in case we had forgotten, or chosen to forget), it wasn’t always peaches and cream with him

    whatever cap he wears into the coop will be fine with me, i’d rather it be black blue and orange, but if it’s got the interlocking “LA”, that’s ok by me

    only thing for sure is this is a first balloter

    [quote comment=”272432″]That old Canadiens team photo is one of the most dignified, beautifully composed, artful presentations of a sports team I’ve ever seen. And, yes, the sweaters are grand.

    Mais oui, mon vieux! Has there ever been a jersey/sweater/shirt finer than that of the Club de Hockey Canadien? What an enduringly great design.

    Now that I’m here, allow me once again to beg Paul to cover Olympic uni news as THE great story of the year for athleticwear aestheticians. The Olympic-story link that Paul provides in today’s piece is, btw, appalling:

    “The Japanese Olympic soccer squads are expected to play at the Beijing Games without the sport’s national emblem due to tighter trademark regulations, sports sources said Tuesday.

    “The International Olympic Committee has notified the Japanese Olympic Committee that the use of the long-beloved emblem featuring a three-footed crow, which originated from folklore about an ancient Japanese emperor, will not be allowed at this summer’s Games.

    “The IOC allows manufacturers’ trademarks to be used on outfits and equipment under its regulations regarding the Beijing Olympics, which at the same time prohibit the use of other types of emblems and trademarks except.”

    The sound you hear is Avery Brundage spinning six feet under.

    [quote comment=”272439″]Paul:

    I know nothing about Mike Piazza, so I don’t have much opinion on the article, but I thoroughly enjoyed the comments. In particular I like the comments from deekay31. First he writes this:
    “Go kill yourself Paul Lukas… if you were a real Mets fan, you would have appreciated him for everything that he did.”

    His request that you take your own life is funny in itself, but four minutes later he follows up with this:
    “I hate you Paul Lukas, if I saw you on the street, Id hurt you… what was the point of your column except to spew out hate and venom for a guy, and for what? Bc he didnt want to play 1B? Bc he didnt confront the media about his heterosexuality the way you wanted him to? Youre real pathetic. I hope Piazza finds you and does to you what he did to Mota.”

    So was he just sitting there for four minutes fuming over the article before he just couldn’t take it anymore and had to comment again? Hilarious.[/quote]

    His lifetime supply of Doritos and Jolt must have been cut off by his mother for failure to take the garbage out!

    [quote comment=”272430″]Can anyone give me a good website that allows you to design baseball jerseys online?[/quote]
    go to baseballamerica.com

    yeah, the drive and pelicans were wearing normal game pants, but with parent club jerseys…and apparently, bp hats…sigh

    Niketeam.com will allow you to design jerseys for a variety of sports, from pre-designed college unis to custom threads for a variety of sports. You can get a free account, and make as many as you want. It’s kind of fun.

    Hey Paul, since you are an employee, does ESPN allow you access to their vast video vault for research purposes?

    Just wondering cuz you had asked if anyone had Tivo-ed that Game 7 of the ’71 World Series on ESPN Classic. Y’know, the one with the guy blowing his nose into a handkerchief?

    Fitting that the Lions would wear those throwbacks against longtime rivals Tennessee and Jacksonville. When I think of throwback football, I think Jags and Titans. Hmmm…Packers, Bears, even Vikes?

    AS Saint Etienne is outfitted by Adidas. And, as Jeremy Brahm notes, their logo has three stripes. Coincidence?

    link. Note the shirt is made by Umbro and has the same crest. Sorry, but not a corporate conspiracy in this case.

    I have always thought this and now I am certain of it. The parent of this Blog has an ego the size of Shea Stadium. I know it is typical of a Mets fan, but I mean that ESPN article about Piazza? ESPN REALLY PAYS you to write articles?

    AND I KNOW EVERYONE has the right to his opinion. BUT ESPN Paid him for his…Where is everyone else’s to voice there’s on ESPN?

    [quote comment=”272452″]I have always thought this and now I am certain of it. The parent of this Blog has an ego the size of Shea Stadium. I know it is typical of a Mets fan, but I mean that ESPN article about Piazza? ESPN REALLY PAYS you to write articles?

    AND I KNOW EVERYONE has the right to his opinion. BUT ESPN Paid him for his…Where is everyone else’s to voice there’s on ESPN?[/quote]

    That’s right, AB: ESPN paid me CASH MONEY for that piece. Lots and lots of CASH MONEY. So much CASH FUCKING MONEY that I treated myself to an extra Twix bar yesterday.

    [quote comment=”272452″]AND I KNOW EVERYONE has the right to his opinion. BUT ESPN Paid him for his…Where is everyone else’s to voice there’s on ESPN?[/quote]

    Seems to me like internet tough guys took the opportunity to voice their opinions in the comments section.

    There’s a reason people like “deekay31” don’t get paid to provide their opinions: Because they’re overdone, hysterical, Red Bull-fueled, misanthropic fanboy crap.

    [quote comment=”272452″]I have always thought this and now I am certain of it. The parent of this Blog has an ego the size of Shea Stadium. I know it is typical of a Mets fan, but I mean that ESPN article about Piazza? ESPN REALLY PAYS you to write articles?

    AND I KNOW EVERYONE has the right to his opinion. BUT ESPN Paid him for his…Where is everyone else’s to voice there’s on ESPN?[/quote]

    First Ammendment!!!

    I have no problem with what PL writes. I may disagree, but that is both his right to air it publicly as well as my right to publicly agree or disagree!

    As far as this blog goes, he created it, he governs the rules. Everyone’s opinion is allowed to be read, therefore making it quite a fair forum.

    An OP/ED piece, whether it’s in your local newspaper, the NYT, or Page 2 of ESPN is just that: an editorial! Opinions are welcome, and if noone were to disagree…that would be a bore!

    [quote comment=”272452″]I have always thought this and now I am certain of it. The parent of this Blog has an ego the size of Shea Stadium. I know it is typical of a Mets fan, but I mean that ESPN article about Piazza? ESPN REALLY PAYS you to write articles?

    AND I KNOW EVERYONE has the right to his opinion. BUT ESPN Paid him for his…Where is everyone else’s to voice there’s on ESPN?[/quote]

    jealous?

    so…why do some of the press passes look like penises? i guess the press was more of an old-boy network than i realized.

    [quote comment=”272452″]I have always thought this and now I am certain of it. The parent of this Blog has an ego the size of Shea Stadium. I know it is typical of a Mets fan, but I mean that ESPN article about Piazza? ESPN REALLY PAYS you to write articles?

    AND I KNOW EVERYONE has the right to his opinion. BUT ESPN Paid him for his…Where is everyone else’s to voice there’s on ESPN?[/quote]

    typical of a Mets fan???? I’ll bet AB is a “long suffering” Yankees fan.

    [quote comment=”272453″][quote comment=”272452″]I have always thought this and now I am certain of it. The parent of this Blog has an ego the size of Shea Stadium. I know it is typical of a Mets fan, but I mean that ESPN article about Piazza? ESPN REALLY PAYS you to write articles?

    AND I KNOW EVERYONE has the right to his opinion. BUT ESPN Paid him for his…Where is everyone else’s to voice there’s on ESPN?[/quote]

    That’s right, AB: ESPN paid me CASH MONEY for that piece. Lots and lots of CASH MONEY. So much CASH FUCKING MONEY that I treated myself to an extra Twix bar yesterday.[/quote]

    Wait, Paul…they pay you? I thought for sure you were some egotistical maniac who wrote these things simply to piss off joeshithead1712171. This changes everything…

    Where can I get one of those Sarcasm tag things?

    and another thing…

    many of you feel there’s that ECB at the WWL, but it’s mostly towards teh SAWKS, not the mets

    and paul wasn’t exactly complimentary to many people’s favorite met (after tom terrific of course)

    link

    Dude… It’s got a Brannock device on the back. Sweet.

    And I love the comments about respecting Piazza’s “private life.” If you have a press conference to announce you’re not gay — one of the most absurd things I’ve ever seen — then it’s not exactly “private” anymore.

    What I am about to say is NOT specifically in reference to Mike Piazza.

    Got that? Okay.

    I spent a decade or so early in my career as a sportswriter, and when I read or hear fans gushing over an athlete, I always wonder if they’ve ever actually met that athlete or they’re just swooning from a distance. Some athletes are far, far, far from gracious, or even remotely pleasant, in real life. Some of the nicest public faces are a cover for jerks, and some of the really jerky public faces mask incredibly nice people.

    Now, what someone does or says in public or in the media CAN give us insight into who they are, can’t discount that. And definitely don’t dismiss it because someone’s been put on a pedestal for hitting home runs or draining three-pointers to win big games. Those efforts have nothing to do with the quality of the person. Of the athlete, yes. Of the person, no.

    All athletes have egos, it’s just that, well…size matters.

    The true-blue fans such as the guy who wants to see Paul dead? They are in serious need of a life. Being a member of your favorite team does not bathe that person in some sort of heavenly glow.

    If he was a jerk when played for another team, he’ll almost certainly still be a jerk when he gets to your team.

    That hat (or the jersey) doesn’t make the man.

    Even if you like those ad-encrusted jerseys in the Leland’s auction (the Russia #12 is a gem), the description is pathetic. They specialize in high-value stuff, yet they couldn’t even find someone who could read Cyrillic? It’s “Moskva” (Moscow), not “Mockba”, and the Dynamo jersey was worn by a guy named Kaminsky. Collectors willing to pay hundreds of dollars for this stuff deserve a little more effort.

    Just got my new issue of Sports Illustrated, and the cover features a comic-book illustration of the Rays and Yankees in Yankee Stadium… Except the Rays player is in home whites and the Yankee is in road grays.

    They can expect some death threats from Yankee fans, most likely.

    [quote comment=”272449″]Hey Paul, since you are an employee, does ESPN allow you access to their vast video vault for research purposes?

    Just wondering cuz you had asked if anyone had Tivo-ed that Game 7 of the ’71 World Series on ESPN Classic. Y’know, the one with the guy blowing his nose into a handkerchief?[/quote]

    I try to keep “special requests” like that to a minimum — there’s only so many favors I can get the ESPN people to do for me (I’m not actually an employee, I’m a contract worker). But yeah, this might be one of those times. Where was that original item about the handkerchief? Was it in the comments section a few days ago or what? Can’t remember…

    Geez Paul, just an extra Twix? I would have gone for the Indiana Jones Mint M&M’s myself.

    [quote comment=”272453″][quote comment=”272452″]I have always thought this and now I am certain of it. The parent of this Blog has an ego the size of Shea Stadium. I know it is typical of a Mets fan, but I mean that ESPN article about Piazza? ESPN REALLY PAYS you to write articles?

    AND I KNOW EVERYONE has the right to his opinion. BUT ESPN Paid him for his…Where is everyone else’s to voice there’s on ESPN?[/quote]

    That’s right, AB: ESPN paid me CASH MONEY for that piece. Lots and lots of CASH MONEY. So much CASH FUCKING MONEY that I treated myself to an extra Twix bar yesterday.[/quote]

    I say “good for you, Paul.” If your day is ruined because of something that a guy wrote and you feel the need to actually take the energy to write venemous things about the column, you , my friend, have too much time on your hands.

    1961 Basketball Cards: Why have I never seen the Celtics use that logo before? That prancing crowned and bearded character. Or the LA Lakers Giraffe with basketball?!

    Were they just used on promo material? I thought the celtics always had the smoking leprechaun dude.

    [quote comment=”272469″]1961 Basketball Cards: Why have I never seen the Celtics use that logo before? That prancing crowned and bearded character. Or the LA Lakers Giraffe with basketball?![/quote]

    The only place a giraffe can hide is…behind another giraffe.

    [quote comment=”272440″]…

    true, he couldn’t run or throw for shit, but he was pretty good behind the dish in his signal calling and his ability to get in front of the errant pitch…and he did invent (or at least popularize) link everyone seems to wear now (knee savers?)

    …[/quote]
    Wrong, Phil. The AliMed Knee Savers were invented by Sandy Alomar, Jr.

    All the talk yesterday about Hall of Famers and the caps they wear on their plaques got me looking…most seem to be straightforward, but Catfish Hunter’s cap link.

    The always-right wikipedia says: “At the time a player was allowed to choose which cap would be memorialized on his Hall of Fame Plaque. Before and after his induction, Hunter spoke highly of his experiences with both the Athletics and Yankees and his appreciation for both team owners, Charlie Finley and George Steinbrenner. For this reason, he refused to choose a team and thus the plaque depicts him without an insignia on the cap.”

    I did not know that. He might be the only one.

    Catfish may have picked the way to go. If a player played for multiple teams, with decent stretches of both time and on-field performance with them, it may cause a lot of controversy with one team whose hat is not on the players plaque.
    Does anyone know of someone like this, or am I repeating yesterday’s discussion too much?

    KT, what about all the players whose careers came before caps even had logos on them? Before about 1920, teams were as likely to have a plain, colored cap as they were to have one with a letter or symbol. I suspect that the early inductees have *mostly* plain caps.

    Piazza was the worst defensive player I have seen play in the majors for any reasonable length of time. My dead grandmother has a better arm that Piazza every did. Paul hit it right on the head… Piazza was a pretty good offensive player but his defense was atrociuos and his “mentality” was skewed to say the least.

    PS: I loved the line about Piazza two-hopping a throw to second. So true… so true…

    [quote comment=”272420″]note to self: do not fuck with albert pujols[/quote]
    I watched that game last night; seeing Chris Young getting hit in the face with Pujols’ line drive was scary… link was halted for several minutes while medical staff tended to Young. Albert and Padres’ first baseman Adrian Gonzales prayed together while Young was being tended. Fortunately, Young only suffered a broken nose; his injury could have been much more serious.

    Once the game resumed, Pujols scored the go-ahead run… on the link, Padres catcher Josh Bard suffered a badly sprained ankle trying to block the plate! Tough night all around for the Pads…

    [quote comment=”272470″]The only place a giraffe can hide is…behind another giraffe.[/quote]

    oh behind eric gagne’s pantaloons

    Just a couple things:

    1) Those (Detroit) Tigers alts are some of the best of the lot. Very classy! I’m not a fan, but I’d not mind seeing them sporadically nowadays.

    2) There’s no quicker way to weep for humanity/Western civilization than to spend any time reading Page 2 commenters.

    3) Good job to everybody who beat me to the punch regarding the kits in Moscow yesterday.

    [quote comment=”272444″]yeah, the drive and pelicans were wearing normal game pants, but with parent club jerseys…and apparently, bp hats…sigh[/quote]
    You mean Charleston…while Greenville and Myrtle Beach (the Pelicans) are in the same state, they are not in the same league. Greenville is the South Atlantic, Myrtle Beach the Carolina.

    [quote comment=”272450″]Fitting that the Lions would wear those throwbacks against longtime rivals Tennessee and Jacksonville.

    When I think of throwback football, I think Jags and Titans. Hmmm…Packers, Bears, even Vikes?[/quote]

    Also fitting that the lions 75th season patch, has so much black in it. Blech.

    [quote comment=”272485″]So the green in the lacrosse jersey…is it kelly green or forest green?[/quote]

    dallas green

    [quote comment=”272475″]KT, what about all the players whose careers came before caps even had logos on them? Before about 1920, teams were as likely to have a plain, colored cap as they were to have one with a letter or symbol. I suspect that the early inductees have *mostly* plain caps.[/quote]

    Well, obviously. I was going for “the only one where there was a cap logo to be had yet it’s blank.” It appears as though link. Though Cap Anson link.

    Paul would know better, but I think the cap logo was probably one of the earliest team identifiers, and I’m guessing that even in the early 1900s, most teams had something on their caps. Numbers on jerseys, obviously, came much later.

    If you go back to 1876, sure.

    But Hunter’s obviously a different case because there was a cap logo to be had and he just refused to choose. Cap Anson played in the first year of the National League (even before that…he’d played in 1871 in the National Association) and played until 1897. He may or may not have ever had a C or other logo on his cap.

    [quote comment=”272440″]say what you will about paul’s espn piece and it’s comments…but i will say this

    paul is a man of his convictions, and he backs up his words (for the most part) with facts, (and of course opinions)…you have to separate the two

    [/quote]

    What facts? (Specifically regarding this Piazza piece that is). Look, I’m not knocking Paul’s opinion of Piazza. I don’t care one way or the other what someone thinks of him.

    However, out of appreciation of the two of us in this board that AREN’T Mets fans , you might want to enlighten us with some substance that backs your opinion.

    For instance, in number one, I’m sure Piazza hasn’t been the first and won’t be the last guy to not like switching positions. Is that an actual quote from Piazza or a paraphrase? If so, what is the context? Also, give an example of a classy guy that made a switch, or compare to another player that sulked.

    Number two: give examples with quotes as to why you’d think Piazza cared about the catcher HR record (remember, we’re not all Mets’ fans so we don’t remember) not just a lame joke.

    Number three: outside of maybe John Kruk, it’s a real tough sell for me to tell me any MLB player is a “horrible athlete”. Guys don’t get to the pinnacle of their trade by being horrible athletes.

    Number four is so off base I don’t even know where to start. Who the hell is anyone to claim that any athlete should take up any given cause? Look, everyone isn’t going to be Roberto Clemente and do super things on the humanitarian level. I would think you’d want to find out Piazza’s opinion on the topic before you ask him to make a social statement with such magnitude because if he didn’t believe in it and said it, it would be hollow. This is like when people wanted Tiger Woods to speak out about the rebel flag or Michael Jordan to be more active in black causes. People have to want to do that stuff, you just can’t force it.

    Number five: the only one I’ll give you. He got caught in a flip flop situation. I’ve never knocked the hustle of an aging power hitter to go to the AL and DH. I hate the rule but if it’s there, exploit the hell out of it. Maybe what Piazza said was in the heat of the moment after all that drama, but the fact of the matter is he did it and on the surface, it’s hypocritical.

    Number six: BURN! It’s a given that he wasn’t the greatest defensive catcher in the world. But isn’t that alluded to already with the mentioning of the move to first?

    There’s also some of that sportswriter hubris. “And as a lifelong Mets fan who never warmed up to Piazza, I don’t want his enshrinement tied to my team”. So you’re judge and jury? And I know that writers don’t normally do the headlines and captions but the picture caption (let’s pretend New York never happened.) is a bit much too.

    I looked at the stats link in the story and I find it hard to believe that someone with 2000+ hits and 400+ HRs (including 99-02 when he had 40, 38, 36 and 33 dingers as a Met) never fulfilled his potential as a star, in the fullest sense of that term.

    And I know your response to the one comment in here, complete with capitalized f-bomb, was sarcastic and not meant like it, but when you say stuff like that, you stoop to the level of the stupid comments that were on your story. Plus, I thought you said that comments don’t bother you in a previous post.

    It’s funny, because in my experience, the people that say things like “I don’t care what other people say” are normally the first ones to get offended or put off.

    Not a good day for you man!!!!

    To be clear, I believe stockings and shirts were the earliest team identifiers (stockings may have come first). I’m sure cap logos came later, but most probably had them before 1920 (the 1919 White Sox link to have anything on their caps. Nor do the link).

    That’s interesting. Maybe it came into common usage later than I thought. Might be fodder for some research for someone with, say, a blog about sports uniforms.

    [quote comment=”272488″] Also, give an example of a classy guy that made a switch, or compare to another player that sulked. [/quote]

    Ernie Banks or Rod Carew for the former.

    Alfonso Soriano for the latter.

    Question regarding the comment that players had to wear new uniform numbers for the Greenville-Charleston game.

    When I was a kid we had the Yankees AA team in West Haven (in fact I think I have two jerseys in my dad’s attic where you can see the faded “NY” and the re-sewn “YANKEES” across the front), the team wasn’t allowed to have any players with Yankees retired numbers because the number was retired throughout the organization.

    Does anyone know if this is true?

    The Wall Street Journal has an article and video about vintage base ball.

    link

    For more vintage uniforms check out the photo gallery from last years’s Ohio Cup…

    link

    Also, George Brett for the former:

    Brett moved to first base in 1987 after 13 years as the Royals’ third baseman. “He didn’t like it,” Schuerholz related. “He had pride. He was one of the best players in the game, an All-Star third baseman. I understood that. George made the switch because he’s a team player.“

    Interesting NYT article here on that very subject link showing that players have different attitudes on position switches. As you might very well expect them to have.

    Also:

    A 2005 article in which Piazza says he was “willing to play (first) occasionally if needed.”
    link, from 1993, in which the subject was apparently first broached and he said ”I told them, ”I’ll do whatever you think needs to be done for this organization,”’ Piazza said last night. ”Obviously, my love is for this ball club and I’ll just do whatever you guys want.”
    link in which it was noted that “In some newspaper reports in November, Piazza was said to be so unhappy with the Mets’ plans to move him from catcher that he asked to be traded.

    Yesterday, Piazza termed those articles ”a complete fabrication” and ”fiction.” Asked if he was happy, Piazza said, ”I’ve not given any indication otherwise, so that goes without saying.”

    [quote comment=”272486″][quote comment=”272485″]So the green in the lacrosse jersey…is it kelly green or forest green?[/quote]

    dallas green[/quote]

    link

    [quote comment=”272489″]To be clear, I believe stockings and shirts were the earliest team identifiers (stockings may have come first). I’m sure cap logos came later, but most probably had them before 1920 (the 1919 White Sox link to have anything on their caps. Nor do the link).

    That’s interesting. Maybe it came into common usage later than I thought. Might be fodder for some research for someone with, say, a blog about sports uniforms.[/quote]

    Given the number of teams named after the color of their socks, I think that’s a pretty clear indication of what was the first team identifier.

    [quote comment=”272465″]Just got my new issue of Sports Illustrated, and the cover features a comic-book illustration of the Rays and Yankees in Yankee Stadium… Except the Rays player is in home whites and the Yankee is in road grays.

    They can expect some death threats from Yankee fans, most likely.[/quote]

    We talked about that yesterday – it’s Bizarro World, referring to the Superman character who did everything backwards (“WE AM DOOMED! YAY!!!”). Count how many things are backwards (or just plain wrong) in the picture – Jeter’s NOB, the foul poles point the wrong way, home team in grays and road in whites, etc.

    [quote comment=”272488″][quote comment=”272440″]say what you will about paul’s espn piece and it’s comments…but i will say this

    paul is a man of his convictions, and he backs up his words (for the most part) with facts, (and of course opinions)…you have to separate the two

    [/quote]

    What facts? (Specifically regarding this Piazza piece that is). Look, I’m not knocking Paul’s opinion of Piazza. I don’t care one way or the other what someone thinks of him.

    …yada yada yada…

    Not a good day for you man!!!![/quote]

    doug,

    you quoted me but your vitriol seems directed at paul…are your comments indeed for mr. lukas to respond to?

    and i’ll give you two catchers who are both HOFers who made the switch without the bitch…link and link…although both did play positions other than first and both did so throughout their careers, so it may not be such a germane point…but they were two catchers who did move from behind the dish

    Paul, keep up the good work… It amazes me how people get so worked up over things.

    [quote comment=”272496″]Given the number of teams named after the color of their socks, I think that’s a pretty clear indication of what was the first team identifier.[/quote]

    That would be….four?

    There were more in the early days of the game, though, so yes, it’s stockings first. I think around that same time, colored shirts and caps may have come into general use to differentiate teams from another.

    But the sock-inspired names:

    Chicago White Stockings (now Cubs)
    Chicago White Sox
    Cincinnati Red Stockings (now Reds)
    St. Louis Brown Stockings (now Cardinals)

    Former Franchises
    St. Louis Brown Stockings (pre-Cardinals franchise)
    Toledo Blue Stockings
    Worcester Ruby Legs

    National Association
    Boston Red Stockings
    Chicago White Stockings
    Philadelphia White Stockings
    Philadelphia Whites
    St. Louis Brown Stockings
    St. Louis Red Stockings
    Washington Blue Legs

    There are several others named after colors and a couple after caps, so there you are.

    [quote comment=”272498″][quote comment=”272488″][quote comment=”272440″]say what you will about paul’s espn piece and it’s comments…but i will say this

    paul is a man of his convictions, and he backs up his words (for the most part) with facts, (and of course opinions)…you have to separate the two

    [/quote]

    What facts? (Specifically regarding this Piazza piece that is). Look, I’m not knocking Paul’s opinion of Piazza. I don’t care one way or the other what someone thinks of him.

    …yada yada yada…

    Not a good day for you man!!!![/quote]

    doug,

    you quoted me but your vitriol seems directed at paul…are your comments indeed for mr. lukas to respond to?

    and i’ll give you two catchers who are both HOFers who made the switch without the bitch…link and link…although both did play positions other than first and both did so throughout their careers, so it may not be such a germane point…but they were two catchers who did move from behind the dish[/quote]
    I’m sorry. I was directing that to you phil. I appreciate the responses people have given. I was only saying it in a rhetorical sense. Those examples could have been used in Paul’s piece, that’s all.

    [quote comment=”272501″][quote comment=”272498″][quote comment=”272488″][quote comment=”272440″]say what you will about paul’s espn piece and it’s comments…but i will say this

    paul is a man of his convictions, and he backs up his words (for the most part) with facts, (and of course opinions)…you have to separate the two

    [/quote]

    What facts? (Specifically regarding this Piazza piece that is). Look, I’m not knocking Paul’s opinion of Piazza. I don’t care one way or the other what someone thinks of him.

    …yada yada yada…

    Not a good day for you man!!!![/quote]

    doug,

    you quoted me but your vitriol seems directed at paul…are your comments indeed for mr. lukas to respond to?

    and i’ll give you two catchers who are both HOFers who made the switch without the bitch…link and link…although both did play positions other than first and both did so throughout their careers, so it may not be such a germane point…but they were two catchers who did move from behind the dish[/quote]
    I’m sorry. I was directing that to you phil. I appreciate the responses people have given. I was only saying it in a rhetorical sense. Those examples could have been used in Paul’s piece, that’s all.[/quote]
    GEEZ! That should say “I WASN’T directing that to you phil” My bad!

    [quote comment=”272497″][quote comment=”272465″]Just got my new issue of Sports Illustrated, and the cover features a comic-book illustration of the Rays and Yankees in Yankee Stadium… Except the Rays player is in home whites and the Yankee is in road grays.

    They can expect some death threats from Yankee fans, most likely.[/quote]

    We talked about that yesterday – it’s Bizarro World, referring to the Superman character who did everything backwards (“WE AM DOOMED! YAY!!!”). Count how many things are backwards (or just plain wrong) in the picture – Jeter’s NOB, the foul poles point the wrong way, home team in grays and road in whites, etc.[/quote]

    Which reminds me of a commercial I saw years ago (may still be running now) .. a United Way commercial with Alex Rodriguez in Yankee home pinstripes filming a commercial at Tropicana Field. As someone who tries to ignore that every team in the AL doesn’t exist – except for maybe the Red Sox – that STILL bothers me today!

    As for those coming on here screaming at Paul through your keyboards (paraphrasing here): What are you doing??? Who gives you the right to voice your opinion on this blog??? Well, whoever it is (and I would expect the official answer would refer to some kind of “right to free speech” document or something), they gave you the same right, and you, too, are using it! The difference is, Paul hasn’t said that you’re NOT allowed to voice your opinion … in fact, he’s made it possible for you to do so, so be grateful, not bitter!

    [quote comment=”272500″][quote comment=”272496″]Given the number of teams named after the color of their socks, I think that’s a pretty clear indication of what was the first team identifier.[/quote]

    That would be….four?

    There were more in the early days of the game, though, so yes, it’s stockings first. I think around that same time, colored shirts and caps may have come into general use to differentiate teams from another.

    But the sock-inspired names:

    Chicago White Stockings (now Cubs)
    Chicago White Sox
    Cincinnati Red Stockings (now Reds)
    St. Louis Brown Stockings (now Cardinals)
    [/quote]
    Don’t forget the Red Sox, as well.

    You mention the Boston Red Stockings as a “Former Franchise,” but they still exist – they’re called the Atlanta Braves now.

    The Tigers may have been named after their striped socks – accounts vary, but that’s one of the possible explanations.

    I know the Boston Red Stockings used to be also called the Boston Red Caps sometimes. Which other teams are named after cap colors?

    [quote comment=”272499″]Paul, keep up the good work… It amazes me how people get so worked up over things.[/quote]

    You mean sort of like when Paul gets worked up whenever faced with something purple? Yeah, that amazes me too……

    As many of you have figured out, the e-mail address for the lacrosse uniform design submissions was wrong. It’s now fixed.

    There’s alot of of nasty comments on the ESPN article…are you blocking those freaks on this site?

    Loving the fact that you’re getting so much coverage. As Milli Vanilli would probably say, “bad publicity is still publicity”

    [quote comment=”272504″][quote comment=”272500″][quote comment=”272496″]Given the number of teams named after the color of their socks, I think that’s a pretty clear indication of what was the first team identifier.[/quote]

    That would be….four?

    There were more in the early days of the game, though, so yes, it’s stockings first. I think around that same time, colored shirts and caps may have come into general use to differentiate teams from another.

    But the sock-inspired names:

    Chicago White Stockings (now Cubs)
    Chicago White Sox
    Cincinnati Red Stockings (now Reds)
    St. Louis Brown Stockings (now Cardinals)
    [/quote]
    Don’t forget the Red Sox, as well.

    You mention the Boston Red Stockings as a “Former Franchise,” but they still exist – they’re called the Atlanta Braves now.

    The Tigers may have been named after their striped socks – accounts vary, but that’s one of the possible explanations.

    I know the Boston Red Stockings used to be also called the Boston Red Caps sometimes. Which other teams are named after cap colors?[/quote]

    And one of the most recent additions to this group, the Columbus Blue Jackets. Although it seems like it wasn’t the team’s blue jackets they were named after, but the civil warriors in their, well, blue jackets… evidence in one of their alt logos, here…

    link

    [quote comment=”272504″]Don’t forget the Red Sox, as well.[/quote]

    Yes. My bad. Obviously. Red Sox and White Sox today, but “stockings” was a common name before the turn of the century.

    [quote]
    You mention the Boston Red Stockings as a “Former Franchise,” but they still exist – they’re called the Atlanta Braves now.[/quote]

    They’re listed as a National Association franchise, which link before becoming the Boston Red Caps in 1876, the first year of the NL. At least, they had many of the same players and the same manager. They may as well be the same franchise (though “franchise” wasn’t quite the same as we think today).

    [quote]The Tigers may have been named after their striped socks – accounts vary, but that’s one of the possible explanations.[/quote]

    Didn’t they get the socks themselves or just the colors from Princeton (whose teams are the Tigers)? Isn’t that another story?

    [quote]I know the Boston Red Stockings used to be also called the Boston Red Caps sometimes. Which other teams are named after cap colors?[/quote]

    St. Paul White Caps/Apostles in 1884. “Saints” is obviously an historic name for a St. Paul team but “Apostles” is really good, too.

    Here’s the web site for Z-Wear, our uniform supplier…
    And how many of you were on there way to long designing jerseys. Fun fun fun.

    Aside, I always thought it was one of the best parts of video game sports, making your own team, drafting players, and customizing the unis.

    So far as I know, nobody’s ever been able to conclusively document the origin of the Tigers’ nickname. But the sock stripes is one that’s been floated around, which is why I included it as a rumor.

    I went to the Astros game the other day and was looking at the list of numbers that had been retired. One of those was #25 for Jose Cruz. So my friends and I got into a big debate on whether he is allowed to wear his own retired number, since he is the Astros 1st base coach. This lasted for a good half inning before we saw #25 roaming the dugout.

    My friends thought that since the number was retired, he should not be allowed to wear it, that it defeats the purpose of retiring it in the first place. I say it is his number, of course he can wear it.

    I didn’t know if anyone knew of this happening to other players who later became coaches.

    [quote comment=”272488″]Not a good day for you man!!!![/quote]

    Thanks, Doug, but I’ll be the one who decides whether I’m having a good day or not. I’m fine with what I wrote, and with the reaction to it. And if I got some people to think a bit harder about Teflon Mike, then it’s been a very good day indeed.

    [quote comment=”272513″]I went to the Astros game the other day and was looking at the list of numbers that had been retired. One of those was #25 for Jose Cruz. So my friends and I got into a big debate on whether he is allowed to wear his own retired number, since he is the Astros 1st base coach. This lasted for a good half inning before we saw #25 roaming the dugout.

    My friends thought that since the number was retired, he should not be allowed to wear it, that it defeats the purpose of retiring it in the first place. I say it is his number, of course he can wear it.

    I didn’t know if anyone knew of this happening to other players who later became coaches.[/quote]

    This is speculation more than hard fact, but usually when a number is retired your hear something along the lines of “no other player will ever wear …”. I don’t think I’ve ever heard “nobody will ever again wear …”.

    Just my 1/50th of a buck.

    How many of you would be jumping all over that Piazza piece if it had been posted by someone on a message board instead of on ESPN.com? It would most likely be dismissed as the rantings of some disgruntled loser who just doesn’t like Mike Piazza, as opposed to the “You are SO awesome for sticking to your beliefs” hero-worship that it has gotten.

    [quote comment=”272513″]I went to the Astros game the other day and was looking at the list of numbers that had been retired. One of those was #25 for Jose Cruz. So my friends and I got into a big debate on whether he is allowed to wear his own retired number, since he is the Astros 1st base coach. This lasted for a good half inning before we saw #25 roaming the dugout.

    My friends thought that since the number was retired, he should not be allowed to wear it, that it defeats the purpose of retiring it in the first place. I say it is his number, of course he can wear it.

    I didn’t know if anyone knew of this happening to other players who later became coaches.[/quote]

    Yankees Don Mattingly and Ron Guidry definitely, Billy Martin (maybe, although I’m not certain when his number went up on the wall)…

    There are probably others.

    [quote comment=”272516″]How many of you would be jumping all over that Piazza piece if it had been posted by someone on a message board instead of on ESPN.com? It would most likely be dismissed as the rantings of some disgruntled loser who just doesn’t like Mike Piazza, as opposed to the “You are SO awesome for sticking to your beliefs” hero-worship that it has gotten.[/quote]

    HUH??? This may come as a shock, but the strong opinions seem to be a bit split. I don’t see the same blind alligence you do. One thing a great number of people realize is that sports journalism isn’t always impartial. Look at the front sports page of your local paper, and the story about whether your city’s baseball team won or lost last night. Is there an obvious attempt at cheering for the other team as much as the local team? Of COURSE not! Look at stories leading up to Barry Bonds breaking (needles and) the home run record … In 99% of stories, the writer was passionately FOR him being as evil as Hitler, or FOR him being the greatest of all time, and, oh yeah … just happened to be accused of some un-heroic acts.

    Do I agree with everything said in the article? No. But it WAS thought out with factual information to back it up. If you disagree, show the numbers that prove otherwise.

    When Brett Hull played (briefly) for the Phoenix Coyotes he wore his Dad’s retired number.

    Yes, I get number 100!
    On the article about Piazza, everyone is entitled their opinion. This may be Paul, and it may be his detractors on ESPN. Even if you don’t agree with them, people may say what they want. It is what makes Democracy so great. It is best, however, to have factual information to back up what you opinion says. Paul’s piece uses fact to back up his straight up loathing of Mike Piazza. This does make Paul’s column slightly better in my mind, but I also value the options of his detractors.

    I will always remember Piazzzza as the guy who didnt block home plate in game 5 of the 2000 WS.. allowing the winning run to score……on behalf of all Yankee fan, thanks, Mike!

    A one dimensional right wing homophobe… good article, Paul.

    [quote comment=”272516″]How many of you would be jumping all over that Piazza piece if it had been posted by someone on a message board instead of on ESPN.com? It would most likely be dismissed as the rantings of some disgruntled loser who just doesn’t like Mike Piazza, as opposed to the “You are SO awesome for sticking to your beliefs” hero-worship that it has gotten.[/quote]

    check me if im wrong, but it seems paul has gotten plenty beat up for this piece

    as far as anyone else “defending” him, i won’t speak for them…but since it seems that “hero worship” comment was directed towards me, i’ll reply

    i disagree with paul plenty…i disagree with him on piazza in fact, but what i was defending was that he just didn’t say “piazza shouldn’t go in as a met” and let it lie there

    he backed it up, with facts and opinions…whether i agree with that or not, i applaud his sticking to his guns

    if i disagree with paul, which is not that often, i generally keep my opinions to myself (excepting of course in matters dealing with shea stadium or nike)…

    but when i agree with him, i let it be known…and i agree with him more than i disagree

    i know it’s en vogue to bash the proprietor of this blog or his espn columns, but just because someone respects paul’s right to say what he has said to doesn’t amount to ‘hero-worship’…jesus christ

    Saint Paul Saints are holding a bobble foot night to honor Senator Craig’s “indiscretions”. Link below.

    link

    My question is, when did Mike Piazza get annointed as one of the celestial players who was so talented on both sides of the ball, and so personable and so non-egocentric compared to his peers, that he is now–as he heads out the door–beyond criticism?

    Yeah, he was good, but some people are making it sound like a player on the level of Willie Mays retired yesterday.

    Not.

    He’s not even George Brett calilber, for pete’s sake. Let’s be real, people.

    [quote comment=”272524″]
    He’s not even George Brett calilber, for pete’s sake. Let’s be real, people.[/quote]

    … but, he is the best hitting catcher in the history of the game.

    [quote comment=”272525″][quote comment=”272524″]
    He’s not even George Brett calilber, for pete’s sake. Let’s be real, people.[/quote]

    … but, he is the best hitting catcher in the history of the game.[/quote]

    Fisk? Bench?

    [quote comment=”272526″][quote comment=”272525″][quote comment=”272524″]
    He’s not even George Brett calilber, for pete’s sake. Let’s be real, people.[/quote]

    … but, he is the best hitting catcher in the history of the game.[/quote]

    Fisk? Bench?[/quote]

    the numbers speak for themselves:

    link
    link
    link
    link

    Hre are 162 game averages (good stat for catchers):

    Piazza: .308 / 36 / 113
    Bench: .267 / 29 / 103
    Fisk: .269 / 24 / 86

    In season with more than 100 games played, Piazza hit higher than .300 9 times & hit more than 30 HR 8 times. bench 0 & 4, and Fisk 1 & 1 respectively.

    It really isn’t close.

    [quote comment=”272516″]How many of you would be jumping all over that Piazza piece if it had been posted by someone on a message board instead of on ESPN.com? It would most likely be dismissed as the rantings of some disgruntled loser who just doesn’t like Mike Piazza, as opposed to the “You are SO awesome for sticking to your beliefs” hero-worship that it has gotten.[/quote]

    You can tell it wasn’t some disgruntled loser posting on a message board because it was spell-checked and laid out very specific reasons for his dislike of the player. Most disgruntled loser message board postings are just venom and basically come down to “I just think he’s a doody-head.”

    If they spell doody-head correctly at all.

    I care less about someone’s opinion being different from mine and more about whether or not the argument is made rationally and laid out with documentation. Which is not the case with the majority of the knee-jerk reactions from Piazza-worshipping Met fans who commented on Paul’s original piece.

    Agreeing with Paul or enjoying the site is not the same thing as worshipping him. To quote Simeon Rice (I believe), “He did what he do.”

    This is what he do. I don’t agree with him on everything. But I can disagree respectfully and see where he’s coming from rather than just spew venom because someone holds an opinion contrary to mine and presents it strongly.

    OK, I think we’ve taken the Piazza thing about as far as it can reasonably be taken. Let’s get back to uniforms. Those who wish to continue to debate Piazza’s sainthood and/or my douchebaggery are welcome to post their comments on the ESPN article. Thanks.

    [quote comment=”272531″]Augusta Green Jackets:
    link
    Mr. Powers, what happened to you? You’re not #1634 anymore.
    By the way, is that, by any chance, a tribute to Bo Jackson?

    Piazza was a better hitting catcher than Bench or Fisk, and, yeah, is most likely the best-hitting catcher in the game’s history.

    He is not the best “all-around” catcher or (surely) not the best defensive catcher ever.

    When I was a kid, Bench was the standard. It was a different era, with different offensive norms. He was a great player on a great team who was feared and respected. Had we had the various ways of measuring a player then that we had now (if we knew, for instance, whether his reputation as a catcher who was great against base stealers was warranted or just acquired legend), the players of that era might have been scrutinized more closely and might have had different stature.

    Campanella was a terrific hitting catcher – in a different era. Berra, too. Piazza’s offensive numbers, even in the context of his contemporaries, are excellent. I don’t think there’s any question about that.

    There are only 16 catchers in the Hall, and only a few are from post-WWII. Piazza was a better hitter than all of them in terms of the sheer numbers. If you adjusted them for offensive environment, they’d probably be slightly less impressive, but still really damn good.

    And, as I’m not a Met fan, I have no opinion on the other stuff because it never affected me. So I don’t know if he’s a douchebag or not.

    My experience, though, is that if you go in expecting a douchebag when it comes to a Major League Baseball player, you’re going to be right most of the time.

    Bench is the best ever. That, plus he did an answering machine message for me once.

    [quote comment=”272539″]Bench is the best ever. That, plus he did an answering machine message for me once.[/quote]

    Only because you threatened to spray him with Krylon, and then have the San Diego Chicken peck him to death. That doesn’t count.

    [quote comment=”272429″]People don’t like to have their perceptions of reality challenged. It’s interesting to see how many people happily accept the St. Piazza myth and swallow it whole, however. The mere suggestion that he might have been a selfish boor really sends people up a wall.[/quote]

    If everyone is merely perceiving a reality that is not true, then what is “reality”? Your “reality” that Mike Piazza is a jerk? So now you believe that your opinion of Piazza is “reality”? No one is accepting a “St. Piazza” myth. “St. Piazza” merely seems to be a term you made up to try to somehow explain why people are upset with your column. No one has held out Piazza to be a saint. Your point seems to be that you believe (rather strongly) that Piazza was a Grade-A jerk, and therefore less than worthy of induction into the Hall as a Met. So in essence, your column was basically a “Six personal reasons why I hate Mike Piazza” piece, as opposed to “Six objective reasons why Mike Piazza should go to the Hall as a Dodger”.

    Not that I want to make assumptions about your purpose behind the column. Quite honestly, it seems like the only purpose of your column was to invoke anger and outrage amongst your readers. After all, you summarized the only real worthy argument for enshrining Piazza as a Dodger in your second sentence: “If you look at the numbers, it’s no contest — his greatest years were in L.A.”. Yet in your next sentence, you basically admit to hating Piazza. So it certainly doesn’t seem like your column was designed to be an objective look at why Piazza shouldn’t go in as a Met, a topic that I’m sure ESPN will deal with and one that will most likely be handled by some of your more esteemed colleagues in Bristol.

    If your objective was to write a column about why Piazza should go in as a Dodger based purely on your personal biases against him, then you did a great job. “He didn’t want to move to first base”? “He didn’t defend the gay lifestyle”? If you’re using something like his non-defense of gays as a criteria (and what is it with bringing that up in a Hall of Fame conversation? Is there something in your closet that needs to come out?), then I’m sure that Piazza driving on the freeway in a car that spewed harmful emissions and worsened the already horrible and smoggy quality of the Los Angeles air while a Dodger would be just as important in determining whose cap he wears. After all, harm to the environment is some serious business, much more so than whether Piazza defends gays.

    But I digress. Was Piazza a selfish boor? That might be a bit strongly worded, but you can certainly make the argument that he was, especially when it came to the whole shifting-over-to-first-base thing. But based on all the goodwill he built up as a Met, why the hell not? Piazza joined the Mets and made them relevant again at a time when New York was awash in Yankee glory. He handled Roger Clemens like his personal whipping-boy and then suffered a beaning and a thrown bat shard in his direction, only to see no payback from his teammates, and then when the opportunity finally arrived, he had to sit and watch a teammate welch on payback when he finally got the chance. Whether he was at 100% or 10%, he gave everything he had, and despite the fact that he ran like he was stuck in molasses, he never dogged it. Win or lose, he was always accommodating to the media.

    So what if he didn’t want to move to first when he was asked? How different is that from the 9-to-5er who works at his job for years, gets great at it, then gets called into the boss’ office one day and is told that no matter what a great job he did in his current position, the company has decided to reorganize and move him to another job? Hey, at least that guy’s boss told him; Piazza’s didn’t. In a league where players airing out their issues with the media is always met by the manager with a “keep it in-house” attitude, I guess it’s no big deal if the same courtesy is not extended to Piazza. And what if the roles were reversed? What if it has been Piazza who had gone to the media and told them before he told his manager that he was thinking of switching positions? I’m sure you would hammer him for that as well. Unlike the poor 9-to-5 schmo, Piazza had the power to say no. And rest assured if the 9-to-5er had the power to say no, he would as well. Besides, it’s not like he actually exercised it. He did switch to first base, and stunk so bad at it that the team moved him back.

    Amazingly enough, not only do you skewer Piazza for the way he “handled” the situation, when he actually made the move, you kill him for being horrible defensively. So he’s a jerk not only for not wanting to make the move, he’s an even bigger jerk because he made the move and now he stinks at that position. You have disdain for him for not being a “team player” and then when he does make the move, you chide him for not being an adequate fielder. Explain to me exactly how that works?

    And if you think that you’ve gotten people to “think a bit harder about Teflon Mike”, all you’ve done is get people thinking (and talking) about what a poorly-written article you put up. Perhaps the best summary of the column was this one from the ESPN.com forum: “This is an incredibly small column, written by an incredibly small mind.”

    (Grabs popcorn.)

    Or would, if we hadn’t already been instructed to move along.

    [quote comment=”272529″]Hre are 162 game averages (good stat for catchers):

    Piazza: .308 / 36 / 113
    Bench: .267 / 29 / 103
    Fisk: .269 / 24 / 86

    In season with more than 100 games played, Piazza hit higher than .300 9 times & hit more than 30 HR 8 times. bench 0 & 4, and Fisk 1 & 1 respectively.

    It really isn’t close.[/quote]

    Okay, I hate to get involved in this discussion, but, even with the 162 game seasons in common, can one really compare numbers from the 70s and 90s/00s? Is it at all possible that Piazza had advantages when it came to body and muscle building that Bench and Fisk did not? I won’t argue about Yogi, although I’d take Yogi’s heart over just about anybody, but isn’t it just possible?

    Please, I’m not making any judgement call on any of the catchers mentioned, just saying that we need to be reall careful when we compare numbers from different eras (not E.R.A.s :) ).

    [quote comment=”272534″]OK, I think we’ve taken the Piazza thing about as far as it can reasonably be taken. Let’s get back to uniforms. Those who wish to continue to debate Piazza’s sainthood and/or my douchebaggery are welcome to post their comments on the ESPN article. Thanks.[/quote]

    Oops … sorry … I didn’t see the request.

    Paul, I usually like what you write, and I agree with your opinions on uniforms for the most part. I was extremely disappointed with your article on Mike Piazza though. You said that Piazza didn’t take the opportunity to say that there’s nothing wrong with being gay in his press conference. In the Uni Watch F.A.Q. I recall you doing the exact same thing.

    “You’re really nitpicky and you write about clothes — so, like, you must be gay, right?

    Nope.”

    Maybe it’s you who’s the hypocrite, not Mike Piazza.

    [quote comment=”272545″]Paul, I usually like what you write, and I agree with your opinions on uniforms for the most part. I was extremely disappointed with your article on Mike Piazza though. You said that Piazza didn’t take the opportunity to say that there’s nothing wrong with being gay in his press conference. In the Uni Watch F.A.Q. I recall you doing the exact same thing.

    “You’re really nitpicky and you write about clothes — so, like, you must be gay, right?

    Nope.”

    Maybe it’s you who’s the hypocrite, not Mike Piazza.[/quote]

    Maybe. Or maybe Mike Piazza is a high-profile figure in an industry with major homophobia issues who was considered an important New Yorker and who had a chance during a high-profile press conference to make a significant statement and blew that chance, while I’m a relatively unknown person working in an industry full of out gays.

    But your underlying point — i.e., that I should practice what I preach — is well taken. I’ll update the FAQ right now.

    [quote comment=”272513″]I went to the Astros game the other day and was looking at the list of numbers that had been retired. One of those was #25 for Jose Cruz. So my friends and I got into a big debate on whether he is allowed to wear his own retired number, since he is the Astros 1st base coach. This lasted for a good half inning before we saw #25 roaming the dugout.

    My friends thought that since the number was retired, he should not be allowed to wear it, that it defeats the purpose of retiring it in the first place. I say it is his number, of course he can wear it.

    I didn’t know if anyone knew of this happening to other players who later became coaches.[/quote]

    Harold Baines had his #3 retired with the White Sox after being traded in 1989. He ended up coming back to the team twice, wearing #3 both times, and then retained his #3 as a coach.

    As for someone wearing their own retired number…well, of course. What number would you have them wear?

    Unlike some, who might, oh, I don’t know, draw up a legally-binding agreement that no one, under any circumstances and under pain of death, could even ask the question as to whether they could wear the number that was retired for me, I’m willing to be flexible. I thought it was crap for Jerry Rice to ask to wear Steve Largent’s #80, but I thought it was appropriate to Brett Hull to want to wear his father’s #9.

    I think a couple of players wearing #42 on April 15th is a nice gesture, but it’s overkill for whole teams (unless they’re the Dodgers) to do it.

    And if your team retired your number as a player and you come back as a coach, of course you should wear that number. If I’m an Astros fan, I would get all warm and fuzzy seeing Jose Cruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuz back in #25 again.

    I believe it is safe to say that, no matter how his baseball skills are viewed, virtually no one will ever say Mike Piazza was one of the game’s great thinkers.

    He got a break that his father and Tommy Lasorada were friends. That got him drafted and signed when maybe he might never have been othwerise.

    And he worked his to the top. Knowing the Lasorda family didn’t make him the Dodger starting catcher. Hard work and a natural ability to hit the ball got him that gig. But even the staunchiest Piazza supporter would have to admit that had he played in the American League, Piazza would become a DH very early in his career.

    Now my thought for the day, which I heard for the first time a few minutes ago:
    “Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.”

    (If I offended anyone, sorry. But that’s a funny line)

    An extra Twix bar, I knew Paul would go Hollywood and sell out

    The Denver Spurs logo is a thing of beauty but I would have liked to see it with a standard hockey boot with a spur the cowboy boot seems to be a little over kill and doesn’t look right

    [quote comment=”272551″]Now my thought for the day, which I heard for the first time a few minutes ago:
    “Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.”[/quote]

    Just get online yesterday? ;)

    As many of you have figured out, the e-mail address for the lacrosse uniform design submissions was wrong. It’s now fixed.

    Hey Paul, sorry about that one. I also wanted to say thanks again for posting about this.

    Thanks to everyone for your suggestions, and keep them coming if you get any more ideas!

    [quote comment=”272486″][quote comment=”272485″]“So the green in the lacrosse jersey…is it kelly green or forest green?”[/quote]

    “Dallas Green.”[/quote]

    Touche! And the mention of the only manager in Phillies history to win a World Series as well…

    [quote comment=”272548″]I like the new answer to that question on the FAQ. Think and Discuss.[/quote]
    Obviously, neither Uni Watch nor its employees continue to advocate playing in traffic…

    Havent been on the site until now, but thanks for adding in the thing about the student shirts to the ticker! Thats twice my submissions have made it on to sites this week, I had a story make it to an ESPN column here

    link

    sorry the link buttons didnt show up on my screen

    [quote comment=”272491″]Question regarding the comment that players had to wear new uniform numbers for the Greenville-Charleston game.

    When I was a kid we had the Yankees AA team in West Haven (in fact I think I have two jerseys in my dad’s attic where you can see the faded “NY” and the re-sewn “YANKEES” across the front), the team wasn’t allowed to have any players with Yankees retired numbers because the number was retired throughout the organization.

    Does anyone know if this is true?[/quote]
    Not completely so. Clubs (Tampa (FSL), Tampa (GCL) that are owned by the Yankees do adhere to the retired numbers. At least one (Scranton) does not. They use the familiar home whites with pinstripes and have 3’s, 4’s & 5’s. Look weird to me to see those numbers on those jerseys in action.

    Also on the retired number subject, the Yanks issued #9 this spring training to Graig Nettles. I know he was a fine player, but the number was retired and not for Graig. Doesn’t make sense to me.

    [quote comment=”272553″][quote comment=”272551″]Now my thought for the day, which I heard for the first time a few minutes ago:
    “Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.”[/quote]

    Just get online yesterday? ;)[/quote]

    Just never heard the reality of it stated so succinctly and, um, accurately. LOL

    Stop being a coward and deleting posts that don’t agree with you….

    [quote comment=”272426″][quote comment=”272418″]Chelsea’s keeper, Petr Cech, was wearing the headgear because of a skull fracture suffered in a game last year against Reading. He’s had it since his return. Chelsea’s kit is next year’s model–their 2007-2008 jersey had no collar and no yellow. Cech is usually outfitted in black, but the goalkeeper uni is a preview of next season, also.[/quote]

    also, patch worn in the Man Utd/Chelsea match wasn’t a championship patch, it’s the Champions League patch and has been worn all tourney by every team participating, not a patch worn simply for the final game[/quote]

    The original post wasn’t referring to the CL patch, but to the embroidery on the front of the kit.

    Never noticed until now, but why do some of those credntials look phillalic?

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